Ramadan: Shia and Reformist Submitter, question about prayer?

Question

Shah:

"Surely, those who are with your Lord are never too proud to perform acts of worship to Him, and they glorify Him, and to Him they prostrate"

"So glorify the praises of your Lord and be of those who prostrate themselves to Him"

"Now await in patience the command of thy Lord: for verily thou art in Our eyes: and glorify thy Lord the while thou standest forth"

"And glorify Him in the night and after the prayers"

"And part of the night, prostrate thyself to Him; and glorify Him a long night through"

Now, brother, I need you to pay attention here. I need to be clear that glorifying isn't praying, but prayer is glorification among many other things. The Quran refers to prayer as glorification and Iman as well. When we pray we are glorifying Allah with what we say in it. So when verse 20:130 says to glorify Allah, it means in prayer. Hope this clarified it for you.

Answer 1

yea .. i live with them too. ive never heard them distintuish from "shia" what type they think they are but theyre all about the 12 imams, they pray on clay from karbala, and they always combine their prayers. i asked this question before without all the fancy info that you put , and i only got unuseful c**p from people like 'pro active' saying that i mustve heard this from a wahabi and its not true., or maybe theyre traveling. i said they been in the US for 27 years, they arent traveling anymore. whatever. its so obvious how misguided they are in every day life. Allahu alim

Answer 2

i'm amotazili from a sonni family, and i can tell you not only shia pray three times, but also there is a support for that in sonni tradition that say that prophet mohammad combined prayers for about 20 days without any cause of rain, traveling, or war. that means there is a support for the three prayers in corrupted sonni tradition too. the important thing is qoran. you seem to know arabic and to know the difference between praying (s'alah) and glorifying (tasbeeh') / (20:130) is about glorifying not praying. in the parts of qoran where god says: perform the prayer (aq'em assalah) it's clear their are only three prayers: dawn, sunset, and night. i think you can find them.

but shah, the sentence of two ends of the day and the night clearly state three prayers, the ends of the day are dawn and sunset, also in the other sentence, (duluk) which you translated to decline, means sunset, if you can read arabic look at the toungh of arabs dictionary in the link below. as for the middle prayer, it's very unclear, middle could mean hounorable, so it could mean dawn or even friday prayer

asker! i'm an arab, and you didn't read my answer, so i will try to make it simple, 20:130 have nothing to do with prayers (s'alah) you lied. it's about glorifying god by tasbih, and it's special for prophet moh'ammad.

(17-78) "Perform the prayer at the (1) abscence of the sun till the (2) darkness of the night and the (3) dawn reading. Verily, the dawn reading was witnessed."

(11-114) "And perform the prayer at the two ends of the day (1, 2) and in the near times of the (3) night. Verily, the good deeds remove the bad deeds. That is a reminder for whom remember"

there is no doubt, the three obligatory prayers are: sun set, night, and dawn. other prayers are additional.

all moslems glorify god without performing salah, we don't call it salah, you are still lying, some moslems use marbels for tasbih, glorifying, no one call it salah

you are not very smart boy, comparing the mension of the names of your five essential prayers to the name of hundreads of prophet! just listen to yourself! your not wise

who denys the three prayers, deny something that's clear in qoran, if he or she understand what i said and insist, then he's a denier (kafer) i met very stupid people here but you are special

arabic is a very accurate language, but you have to understand that even language is a part of the social situation, where poltical and economical factors are involved. the accurate meaning is there but you have to be carful from the traps and the ediots

Answer 3

@safiyah

ur question was "why do shias pray only 2 rakat for their prayers"

and that's when I gave u my answer, but as usaul some "muslims" always put words in my mouth

from what i have been taught, we combine our prayers because, if say we gut busy and do not have the time to pray asr or isha at their times, it is best to pray them one after the other rather than praying them late and qasr...my father has told me even our Prophet used to do this..and im sure like everyone else, my father would never lie to me about Islamic teachings, it is actually highly recomanded to pray the prayers according to their times, but it is still permissable to pray them combined, im not really sure if this answers ur question, but this is to the best of my knowledge

Answer 4

The Reformists point of view is:

1-  The verses quoting glorification of Almighty, do not necessarily mean Salat. Salat is a command and is mentioned distinctively in verses.

2-  Our problem is that "We" consider our practices to be ALRIGHT and the beliefs from which these practices are originating as ALRIGHT and then we try to interpret the Quran to compliance with prevailant beliefs and practices. But if we can NEUTRALIZE ourselves completely, then the matter will be different.

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Going further, the Reformists state:

1-  It cannot be a coincidence that ONLY 3 salats have been mentioned in the Quran by NAME e.g. Salat Fajr, Salat Isha (ref. 24:58) and Salat Wusta (Zuhr) (Ref. 2:238)

2-  Now as you yourself have pointed out that the time of Salat-Wusta, Ref. 17:78, is from the decline point of sun UPTO the night. And this is further confirmed by the prayer that Solomon (Sulaiman) missed e.g. Ref. 38:32

Now from 2:238, it is very clear that the NUMBER of Salats is an odd number e.g. 3 or 5.

Now let us go to the verse 11:114. The whole problem probably starts from the mistranslation of the verse 11:114

The Reformists state that the crucial word "Zulufin" in the verse 11:114, has been mistranslated to "Parts". In the verse 39:3, the same word has been used to describe "Close" or "Closer" or "near".

Therefore the translation of the verse 11:114, according to Reformists is:

11:114

You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and in the proximities of the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed.

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That is to say, that there are ONLY two salats mentioned in this verse and NOT 3. The Submitters argue that these are three salats. If these are 3, then combined with the noon salat given in 17:78, we come to a total of 4 salats. Then to make up the count of 5 as per 2:238, we have to find the middle prayer, which is hunted in the form of Salat-Asr.

However, if the Reformists are correct in their translation i.e.that these are ONLY 2 salats of Fajr and Isha (known as Maghrib). Then as per 17:78 and 2:238 and 39:3, the total number is 3 and NOT 5.

To further strengthen the point, they also point out that in the Old Testament, there are 3 verses that reveal the quantities of regular daily prayers i.e. David's prayer in Psalms, an account of Daniel in Kings etc.

These verses in Old testament say that these prophets prayed 3 times a day.

Further, they also note that the Shia Fiqah, holds that the time of both Asr and Isha are not precisely fixed. Therefore they have options to combine these prayers with the 2 others. Thus ending up to 3.

There is ANOTHER point that I noticed. And that is that, during our stay at Arafat, we do NOT pray Asr. Instead we too combine the Asr and Zuhr prayers together. This too seems to go in favor of 3 rather than 5.

Wallah-o-Alam.

I am still investigating the matter, and am NOT very sure.

May God guide us.

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@Asker:

First, I really regret that I do not know Arabic. I can read it (with Airabs), but I cannot understand it. Some words of Arabic are common to my native language "Urdu", yet the grammar is very different and the meanings too. Therfore, I cannot I regret to say that I cannot really catch you up on the language.

However, coming to your point of view:

I have a few objections and I find a few grey areas.

1-  The words in 20:130 do not say "Salat". They say glorify.

2-  From your translation I am getting confirmed to the point of view of Reformists. They say that 17:78 is the RANGE of time during with Salat-Wusta can be delivered. As we see it in the case of Sulaiman 38:32.

3-  For other prayers e.g. Fajr and Isha (Maghrib) we have somewhat defined start and finish times of the prayer. But it is very difficult to define the end of Zuhr and start of Asr. Also it is not possible to say, if the Zuhr prayer is invalid, if it is delivered in the time of Asr. Can it be????

4-  If we take, Salat-Wusta to start from the point of decline e.g. 12 noon UPTO (focus on "TILL" the night in 17:78), then obviously we know that Zuhr time starts a few minutes later to 12 noon and ends by sunset (the point when the night is to start).

5-  Even if I consider your point of 20:130, I find into another problem. This sounds to me 5 prayers BESIDES Zuhr e.g.

a-  Two sides of the day. If Asr is considered as side of the day, then correspondingly, there should be a salat soon after sunrise (the other side of the day).

b-  Then before sunrise and after sunset. O.K.

c-  Then during the night. (commonly known as Isha, which now the Reformists do not acknowledge).

I am however VERY thankful to you, to have initiated the discussion. I find myself benefitted from it. And seems God has answered my prayers FAST. I would still look forward to your points.

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@Rumaitha

In your recent response you are stating that in verse 17:78, there is a Plural form of Salat. Please elaborate. I am skeptical about this.

Besides even if it is taken as plural, it can mean the Salat Thur and Salat Maghrib (Isha), because we get these two salats before complete darkness.

The definition of night will need to be established, before we can clarify on this one. This is perhaps one of the points of the Reformists. That the Night means complete darkness. It does not include the twilight zone. As indicated in 2:187.

Besides, don't miss the point that there are ONLY 3 salats mentioned by NAME. Is it a coincidence or not???

Moreover, just on a side note: the word salat is NOT limited to contact prayer or glorification etc. It also means

1-  To follow closely

2-  To support.

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Thanks anyway. I have pasted your argument in a mail, to get a second opinion. I have to do this, as I am not familiar with Arabic. I will let you know, once I get the response.

@Rumaitha

For sometime, I was about to be carried with your arguments. But now I don't feel convinced. You are mixing glorification with Salat. I never banked by argument on 20:130. I consider it as NOT stating about salat. Because, it is causing more confusion. Without the inclusion of Zuhr, it is stating 5 salats i.e. At two ends (after sunrise and before sunset, by one definition), then before sunrise and after sunset and then during the night. That makes 5 not 4.

One more thing, in the Quran, God never mentioned that He did not mention any prophet. What God has said is that He has not mentioned many Messengers. We imply that all prophets have been mentioned in the Quran. However, not all messengers are mentioned.

However, I would state, that LET us STICK to the topic.

And if appropriate, let us start a fresh question as this one is growing tooooo big now, to continue.

@Asker,

Salat is a specific command for HUMANS. It is NOT for other entities. The words of Glorification have been used for OTHER entities as well e.g.  Mountains, birds and everything in the Universe.

Therefore Glorification is NOT the same as salat. When you state that salat is a form of Glorification and not vice versa. Then again, we CANNOT keep guessing in the verse, that 20:130 glorification is referring to salat or to glorification.

When u say that Arabic is very efficient in conveying precise meanings. You make your case quite weak. Because I lived in Saudi Arabia for 2 years. And I know how many Arabs can give concrete meanings to the verse. To this day, they cannot tell, whether in 5:6, it is wash the feet or wipe the feet. This is the efficiency of this language. In my view, the Quran has been DELIBERATELY made to convey multiple meanings in many verses. And the language ability simply fails the test of precision in meanings in all those verses.

Answer 5

Glorious Quran states 3 Salat by name Fajr,Salat ul Wasta,Esha

there is no ambiguity,in it,why 3 salats explicitly by name,and the other 2,left for humans to innovate the names !

and we all know Allah Allmighty is NOT FORGETFUL.

.the problem has become problematic is because we do not find any error in our practices.