Ramadan: Submitters, prophets and messengers?

Question

Shah:

All nabis BEFORE Muhammad had books to preach from (from those who received revelation). A nabi does not mean one who has a scripture. A nabi is one who is given prophethood, they are divinely inspired recipients of God's revelation but are not the ones being sent down WITH a book/scripture.

Refer to the verse that says not all rasools are mentioned. He mentions other nabis but we again, do not know if they came with scriptures (rasools) as the same verse states.

What are angels sent with? Messages. They are angel messengers sent down by God with messages as human messengers (rasools) are sent down with a message confirming that before them.

I would like the verse that says Quran is a rasool.

We may never know as God clearly AGAIN, states in the verse, of the Rasools are narrated to you, and some aren't mentioned. Get the hang of it already. We know moses was sent down with a scripture, Abraham, jesus, Isaac, and all the others mentioned in the Quran.

Answer 1

Now, what has God given to EACH and EVERY "Nabi" ??

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Forget about the Torah for the time being. The verse simply simply says that Each NABI was given the "book" and the "Wisdom".

Therefore EACH and EVERY  "NABI" carries a book / scripture.

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We are talking about the book !!!!

So EVERY Nabi is given the BOOK !!!!!

But that is NOT the case with the Rasool, he is not in the possession of the book !!!

So the difference is CLEAR !!!!

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OK

So you mean the VERSE is true for some Nabis and not true for other Nabis ??

For no Rasool came in the times of Ibrahim and Ismael that would confirm what they brought. And so Ibrahim and Ismael had none to believe and support.

For your information, I am giving you a list of Nabis and Rasools who were BOTH e.g. Nabi+Rasool (as per different Quranic verses).

1-  Noah

2-  Lot

3-  Ibrahim

4-  Ismael

5-  Ishaq

6-  Yaqub

7-  Yusuf

8-  Musa

9-  Haroon

10-  Dawood

11-  Ayub

12-  Yunus

13-  ILyas

14-  Isaa (Jesus)

15-  Mohammad

Now this list is QUITE long compared to your list that states that ONLY Moses, Jesus, Abraham and Ismael were Nabi+Rasool.

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@Rumaitha

U seem to be in habbit of telling ppl that they miss out ur point. While it is always possible for ANY person including myself. But do u really think, a Mathematician, and Physicist can miss out logic easily and casually.

For ppl like u, who very OBVIOUSLY r playing and twisting the word of God to fit their agenda, I do start playing, with them. I have spent THOUSANDS of hours, in heated discussions with my closest and BEST friends (+30 yrs of friendship), on this one. And to tell u honestly, they (also Mathematicians and Physicists) were FAR more logical and TOUGH in their arguments. Muhammad K., is an eye witness to this one.

Go on, I still need to see in the Quran that the Rasool brings a new revelation of a new book. The Quran does NOT mention ANY Rasool before Noah. The Bible says Enoch (Idrees) was a prophet. The Quran says that Idrees was a Nabi and Saint (Wali). Now to start with a book, the logic as per ur definition says, that FIRST a Rasool should come to deliver the book (through ur revelation), then a Nabi will possess that book, then that book will get corrupted and then a NEW Rasool will come to deliver a new book. And so the cycle will go on.

If that is ur logic, then Mohammad is the Last Nabi (33:40) but no where in the Quran it is mentioned that he is the Last Rasool. And being a Rasool, he has brought a book, but BEFORE he brought the book, he was NOT in a possession of ANY book. The books were in the hands of Bani Israel, not with Qureish. So to start with, he can neither be a Rasool, Nor a Nabi. Because a Nabi, must possess an EXISTING book (as per ur logic).  Ref. 29:48, where Mohammad did neither study Torah and Injeel, NOR did he write them (was totally unaware of it).

Also, if ur logic is correct, then Ezra should have been mentioned as a Rasool. Because he revived the Torah when it was TOTALLY lost. While I wonder How God forgot to mention such an important event and name him in the list of Rasools. If God does not mention him at all and misses out in the list of Rasools. Then it is understandable. But we see that in 9:30, he mentions him, but does not include him neither as Nabi nor as a Rasool. Strange ???

Besides this, how would you describe, the point, that in the Quran, we find that even Angels have been called "Rasools" and EVEN the Quran calls ITSELF as a Rasool. Now which another book, the Quran is going to reveal ??

If I go with ur logic, then I do run into a hen and egg situation. A Rasool brings a new book, ONLY when a previous corrupted book exists or is lost through corruption. A Nabi does not bring a book, he possesses an existing book brought through a Rasool who has passed earlier to him. Then the point is, WHO brought the FIRST book !!!!!,

A Rasool or a Nabi ?????

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@Rumaitha

hehehe......

I have run out of space. That is why I am deleting the upper portion.

What about the hen and egg problem??

You stated that the Rasool comes when the book has been corrupted. So he comes to replace an old corrupted scripture with the new REVEALED scripture.

So in order for the Rasool to come in, there should be ALREADY a preceding book. And as per your explanation the Nabi, inherits an Existing book. He does not bring the new one.

1-  So we have a hen and egg situation. Where did the first book come from??? from a Nabi or a Rasool.

2-  Which verse tells us that the book is REVEALED ONLY to Rasools, not to Nabis.

3-  Since Mohammad was the Nabi (the Last one). Therefore the covenant must have been taken from him too. So which Rasool was he supposed to believe and support??

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@Rumaitha

First, your explanations did not make ANY sense to me since the very begining. You can blame me/us to be biased. But I guess we are very neutral and we know it. No matter how much u tend to shout, we r fully aware of our neutrality and we definitely fear God and we do not tend to manipulate his words to fit our agendas. That is why we clearly say:

"Messenger or NO messenger: God Alone, Quran Alone".

For you it might be very important to break Rashad Khalifa. For us it does not even matter. You are just wasting your precious time for nothing. It will not yield anything useful to you. Instead it might cause a few restless nights to you. While we would sleep fully contented and satisfied with "Quran Alone, God Alone". No twists and turns and no hard to imagine theories.

Before I depart from this discussion, I would like to say a few words:

a-  No doubt that you are impressive in your skills and knowledge as well as the skill of conveying your message clearly (in most cases).

However, I would like to drop a few things for you to ponder:

1-  Your theory clearly fails at both ends e.g. the first book and the Last Rasool. The same "Hen and Egg problem".

No matter what twisted explanations you give, the formula will never satisfy the two ends.

2-  Quran itself has been called the Messenger in 65:10 and 11.

3-  You were wrong when you stated that Mohammad is not under the covenant. He was AMONG the Nabiyeen from whom the Covenant was taken. This is mentioned in 33:7

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Just a last piece of honest advice:

1-  Learn to honor the words of God. And not to play with it.

2-  Ego and pride will lead ONLY to Jahanam. We must kill our Egos. This is the first command in the Quran. God does not like the arrogants.

(I was egoistic and arrogant to a much higher degree. But I was always obedient to God. And He has made me learn crush my ego and arrogance.)

3-  Every Human and Jinn has been granted a grace period of 40 years. I hope you still have a long way to go to reach 40. So the doors of correction are still open. Don't rebel to the extent that God decides to send you astray. You are no doubt very impressive, but God can still send you astray DESPITE your immense abilities and knowledge.

- Don't underestimate God. He is omnipotent. Whatever qualities and abilities you posses have been GRANTED by Him. It is not your achievement. It is his grant. And you cannot surpass the limits that He has set for you.

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As for us we are FULLY, TOTALLY, 100% contented with:

"Messenger or NO messenger,  :  God Alone, Quran Alone".

There is NO and ABSOLUTELY NO Room for ANY Idol in our philosophy and minds. e.g.  Ibrahim, Musa, Dawood, Isaa, Mohammad and EVEN Rashad Khalifa.

Wasalaam.

Answer 2

Ouzibillahi Mina shytan Al Rajeem

Bismillahi Al Rahman Al Raheem

Answer 3

The Quranic truth that a prophet delivers a scripture necessitates that every prophet must be a messenger.

The claim that "not every prophet is a messenger" is a lie and violates logic and the Quran. Would God give a man to keep the scripture to himself? God in His immense Mercy and Blessings has given us additional proofs in the Quran. Irrespective of Hadith (fabrications) and grammar rules made by humans to support their conjecture; God, the best Knower of Arabic language and grammar gives the following proofs in the Quran that every prophet is a messenger, but every messenger is not a prophet. In verses 19:51,52 God calls Moses and Ismail "Wa kana Rasoulan Nabiya" or messenger prophet. In plain english, "Moses/Ismail was a messenger who was also a prophet". This expression is chosen by God to emphasize that every prophet is a messenger, but every messenger may not be a prophet. No where in the Quran the opposite expression "prophet messenger" or "Nabiyan Rasoula" has been used. "Wakana Siddiqan Nabiya" used in verse 19:56 states that all prophets (nabi) are "Saddiq", however all "Saddiq" are not prophets. In verses 17:93,94, we find "Bashara (human) Rasula", a human who is also a messenger, but not every human is a messenger. Muhammad is described in 33:40 as "a messenger of God". This expression ("a messenger of God") is not linguistically necessary. If it is dropped out, we still would have a perfect sentence that Muhammad was the last prophet. Obviously, our Creator, is telling us that Muhammad was "a messenger of God, and the last prophet," not the last messenger

@ Dear Rumaitha  3:81 is TOO DEEP for you,

tell me about 3:18

3:18 شهد الله انه لا اله الا هو والملئكة واولوا العلم قائما بالقسط لا اله الا هو العزيز

translate 3:18