Ramp check question?

Question

Someone just asked a really good 141 ramp check question and it got me thinking about something.

For a part 91 flight with passengers, are you required to have your logbook onboard?

I have had instructors tell me no, I've had others say yes. The reasons for both are understandable. Nowhere in the FAR does it say you must have your logbook with you. But, part 61 says you must have your 3 landings within the last 90 days to fly with passengers, how do you prove that without a logbook?

I do always fly with mine but I'd really rather not. I can just see myself getting to one on the last pages and spilling coffee all over it...

Answer 1

(If you get all the way to the last page without spilling grease, strawberry jam, or coffee on it, you're amazing!)

Once more, Cherokee Flyer is dead right.  As far as it goes.

The answer to the question, "How do you prove it without a logbook(?)" is, well, "how do you prove it with a logbook?"

Entries in your logbook, just like the log of a ship at sea, fall under the heading of "Sworn Testimony."  You may be asked to attest to it under oath if you get involved in a court action that involves any question as to your flight experience, but in a day-to-day sense, the FAA will usually consider it sworn testimony, and take your word for it.  Your signature, and that of various instructors and check pilots, on your logbook entries, is considered "prima facie evidence of its correctness."

When I had about 450 hours, I lost my logbook.  Despite due diligence, I could not find it where it was supposed to be, and I couldn't find it where it wasn't supposed to be.  It was just gone.  So I called the GADO and asked them what to do.

The guy at the GADO said, "Well, if you were honest and accurate when you kept your log book, you will be honest and accurate now.  So we just take your word for it under most circumstances."

He told me to get a new logbook and write in the first several lines on the first page, "After a diligent search I am unable to find my old logbook.  I attest that the following figures are true and correct to the best of my knowledge."  Then you write the approximate beginning and ending dates of your original logbook, and "entries between dates" with the total or approximate total.

So if you tell the ramp check bunny that you have three landings and takeoffs in the last 90 days, that's sworn testimony, too.  Except under the most suspicious circumstances (like if he thinks your Private Certificate is a fake, or something like that), they will take your word for it.  Most pilots are truthful, accurate, and safety-minded.

Also, after you have the ratings you are bucking for, and unless you are flying for some Part NNN service that has a procedural requirement for record keeping, your logbook becomes superfluous.  Your FAA certificates become your legal proof of proper experience.

I have one of those big old airline pilot logbooks filled with my whole life story and some blood stains, as well as strawberry jam, the goo from a dead cockroach, and several coffee stains.  I am sure as h**l not going to take that to the airport with me.  It sits in a place of honor on a shelf in my study at home, and I have thought about asking to have it cremated with me.

Like me, most of us old ancient fly-boys and girls, don't bother to keep a logbook any more.  If the ramp check robot wants to know, she can ask around in the FBO shack.

You have to be able to produce your log if formally requested, but not right on the spot.  Again, you have your certificate in your pocket, and that's the real legal proof.

Answer 2

As everybody else said, "NO" you don't have to.  If they have a question, you can fax them a copy or bring to the GADO/FSDO.

Same thing occurs with aircraft maintenance issues -- how does he know the airplane had a 100-hour/annual?  He goes to the operator and requests to see the airframe/engine logs.  You checked before you left, and it's not your job to carry them around with you.

Answer 3

No you are not required to keep your logbook with you when you fly.

The rules of flying are pretty simple the FAA is supposed to trust you as a licensed pilot to follow the rules.  You are supposed to be an adult have the responsiblity of commanding an aircraft - hence you know the rules of 3 T/O & Landings in 90 days.  The only time it is to be questioned is if there is an incident.  

Now certain FAA / GADO personal especially those that conduct ramp checks love to imtimadate you and make you think that it is required.  It is their way of feeling powerful.  But the proper procedure is if they have a question or reason to question your flight experience to set up and appointment to view the documentation (your logbook).  But this makes them have to do a dew steps, that they do not like to do.

First do not let them intimadate you on the ramp.  I have seen FAA personal get things wrong all the time.  

Remenber the story off the FAA office (in LA) that red flagged a Cessna 340 for bent propeller blades - citing the aircraft obviously had a ground strike causing the propeller tips to be bent.  The aircraft must have an inspection before it could be flown again.  Sound familar to anyone?  Does anyone remenber why the prop blades where bent?  You quessed it Q-tip propeller modification - per approved STC.  lol - true story.

Second do not keep your logbook with you.  Keep it on your night stand and every night before you go to bed - log your hours.

Or do what I did log your flying time on the computer - there are some good programs out there that you can buy,

Answer 4

Ditto on everything that has been said here, I'll take it one step further. If you own an airplane and your hangar door is open it gives them the right to come in an check things out. I had a green horn FAA/FSDO dude walk in when I had my cowling off to check for a suspected birds nest and he tried to tell me that I needed an Air Frame mechanics ticket to do that.....I produced a copy of the FAA approved owner maintenance items list and sent him packing, most of these guys don't even fly.  

Answer 5

No, you do not need your logbook, nor do I think it's even a good idea to bring it (you could loose it).  Keep it locked away someplace safe.  I've had lots of surprise ramp checks, as a student, private, CFI and airline pilot.  They're no big deal.  They ask to see your license and medical and that's about it, unless you screwed up that is...

Answer 6

Previous posts are correct you don't need it with you. If you do get ramp checked and you have it with you keep that fact to yourself. The FAA is not your friend and even though you weren't required to show your logbook if you do and they find a problem with it you have just given the FAA evidence against you that could have been avoided. I like to have a logbook with me because I find it easier to log the flight right away but I also keep a duplicate logbook in a firesafe at home so I can make sure its safe and I make sure it looks nice when I have to show it during an interview.

Answer 7

No.  Of course not.  It is not a good practice to carry your most recent logbook around.  Part 61 doesn't say you have to prove your currency on the spot.

Answer 8

no you are not required to have it on board. If the Inspector pushes the issue ( and they most likely will not unless they have reason to suspect you are non compliant) simply make an appointment to present it to him/her at the FSDO on a convenient  date.

Leave your log book at home, there is no good reason to carry it around and you risk losing or having it stolen

Edit: olive branch noted and appreciated.