Horse falling to knees?

Question

A friend of mine has a 13.3 hh mustang, she is 5'1 and 120 lb.

A year ago while cantering to the right her horse fell to his knees and she fell over his head. today - he fell and she fell over his head. She had a tie down on him today, but didnt have one on him last year at all. She is worried she is too big for him. (he is 900 lbs aswell). What could this be a sign of? the family is worried that they may have to sell, or even put him down.

(educated answers/guesses only. no kids please.)

Answer 1

If it was a one time thing, it could have just been a fluke, maybe the horse lost his footing.  13.3 in my opinion would be considered small for someone who is 5'1.  I doubt there is anything wrong with the horse, (of course I am not a vet), I think he would be more suitable for a smaller rider.

There is always the option of keeping the horse and "renting" him for younger and smaller riders to train on, because when I outgrew my pony I couldn't bear to give him up.

Answer 2

It's sort of hard to know exactly what the problem is without seeing the fall.  However, my guess is that the pony wasn't in a frame--he was probably strung out and was leaning on his forehand.  Then, when he stumbled your friend wasn't able to sit up and balance him so the pair fell down.

I'm not worried about your friend being too heavy for the pony, but she needs to have more control over her upper body because she's a little on the tall side for the pony.  If she wants to keep riding it she needs to be able to sit up and balance the pony if he trips.  

I've had a couple horses fall when I've been riding.  They were all accidents, and I'm not sure if I could have prevented them, but you've got to move on.  I'm sure the horse doesn't need to be put down, but have the vet come and check on him.  Also check the tack and the footing.

Answer 3

Are his hooves well taken care of? A friend of mine's horse kept tripping because the farrier put the wrong type of shoes on.

Have they checked for an abcess?

I'm iffy about the navicular, because it's more or less seen in bigger horses that have more body mass, not usually in ponies. That doesn't rule it out, though.

Hm, you've got me stumped! Let us know what it turns out to be!

Answer 4

If you want educated answers and not guesses, then you need to have the horse seen by a vet. Anyone on YA would only be guessing as they cannot and have not seen the horse or the rider and only a vet is qualified to make a diagnosis of disease or medical condition. So, the only way to find out what is really going on is to have the vet out.

There is an old US Cavalry rule of thumb that a horse can carry up to 20% of his body weight. Using that, the horse should be able to carry up to 180 lbs of rider and tack. Based on that, your friend is not too heavy for the horse.

Answer 5

You need to get a vet. Just to check him over. A horse were I ride had herpes, but he fell and couldn't get up.(not when someone was riding, but he;s doing fine.) But I don't think that's it. Scine this as gone on for a year I'm suprised he hasn't shown symtoms of something else. But the vet should be able to tell you what's really going on. I don't think it's because she's too big. (I know someone that ride small ponies and she rides a horse about 16 hh.)

Answer 6

My neighbor was cinching up her horse and it fell to its knees they thought that maybe she hit a nerve while tacking him up maybe thats the case.

Answer 7

I am a kid. so my opinion means nothing.

Answer 8

the problem without seeing the horse in person it is hard to make a call on what it could be.it could be a navicular problem,nerve problem or just weak ligaments and tendons.the vet will have a better idea after the x ray as to a cause.you cant do much but keep her calm and reassure her that thing will be ok.

edit:one thing she might try is have her stretch out the front legs before a ride,to the front and to the rear,this is a good indication if there is a tightness that could have happened in a stall or paddock or a reaccouring muscle pull.

Answer 9

Im gonna put my 2 cents worth here, as Ive said many times before about tripping and falling, It is not normal. I have experience with a trippy horse for the last few years, he has been to the university of MN and has had extensive tests and treatment, You always have to consider a neurological problem EPM and other pain and bone issues. Our horse ended up having arthritis in a few of his neck joints and went through alot of shots and complete rest for 8 weeks. Hes slowly being able to be ridden but is not going to be able to compete because of his issues. Get a complete Vet physical, riding him further will cause more damage.

Answer 10

If the pony is tripping onto his knees, rather than falling forwards - that's actually far far more common than you'd think.  There are a number of native ponies in the UK who constantly trip, but it's not talked about much. I've known a few people who have been catapulted straight off the front when their pony trips; it happens so suddenly, and anyone who has witnessed it first hand knows you haven't a hope of staying on.

The pony needs to be ridden properly.  If he's allowed to meander along, or is not working correctly, he's far more likely to put his foot down slightly off balance - and if he's also rushing or is even slightly ahead of himself, he'll trip.  He needs to be ridden on a short rein and pushed uphill.  Any laziness on the rider's part will exacerbate the problem.

I'd also have a farrier look at the balace of his feet.  If he lands outside quarter first he's much more likely to trip, so may need to have his feet rebalanced.  Natural balance shoes (which have two toe clips instead of one) change the way the foot hits the ground and brings the breakover point back - which will reduce the likelihood of the pony tripping.

If, on the other hand, it's collapse not trip - get the vet in.

Answer 11

Well I can't think of a whole lot of medical reasons right now. My sisters horse has navicular and I would think that if this horse had it, he would be showing more consistent signs than just tripping once a year. It could be that he is a little long in his hooves and needs a trim or maybe he was just tired and didn't pick up his feet. One of the things I thought of was conformation. If a horse is built downhill and rides on its forehand without really engaging its hindquarters, it could be more likely to trip. If you can't find any medical reasons wrong with him maybe you could work on getting him to lift up his front more by driving himself with his hind. It could just be that he's simply dragging his front end and is just tripping on occasion from that. Just a thought, I hope everything works out.

Answer 12

1-dose he have a problem with his withers and was the saddle on had it accidently sliped up that could have caused him pain

2-has he ever had shoulder problems or maybe if could have happen while cantering if he had steped in a hole and sometimes a horse can lose his footing if on rough bummpy land of if their are holes in the groun and mole hole are not easy to see but that may have caused him to lose his footing but if this has happen before i belive he has had a ingury but he may have hoof trouble and if it is thrush (they get it when thay sand in their unrine and stool to long and it can rott the frog if his stall has not been cleaned out or if he stands in a barn out in a feild it they may need to put hay in it or close it off fr a while) they can pour bleach on it to kill the bacteria his he piged toed the may be they prob he may need corritve boots but always talk to a vet and have him cheeck out just dont put him down if he cant be ridden he can always show in a halter class and be her best freind good lookThere can be various causes of stumbling - lazyness/tiredness is one and the most common, along with just being clumsy, but there can be more serious causes.

Minor nerve damage can cause problems with the 'locking' systems of the legs, causing stumbling, as can pain in the back (i,e baddly fitted saddle). Long toes can also cause it and confirmation/movement faults i.e dishing

I wouldn't be too conserned if he's not do it before but I would recommend you get knee boots ASAP. When the horses knee is fully flexed (i.e when they fall on their knees) the joint pouch is right next to the skin, with no bone or ligament protection. It's horribly easy for something to penetrate right into the joint capsule.

Horses that are over at the knee may appear unsightly, but they usually don’t have actual knee problems.

It’s amazing the amount of punishment the horse’s knee—or "carpus"—can take, especially when you actually look at how it’s put together. The radius, the major bone of the upper arm in the horse, is balanced on two rows of small bones called the carpal bones, which are in turn perched on top of the horse’s cannon bone and the head of the medial (inside) splint. This arrangement allows the knee to flex freely, but it doesn’t look too stable.

A horse's stability is achieved by multiple ligaments that connect the carpal bones to each other, as well as others that run from the radius to the carpal bones, the carpal bones to the cannon bone and bridging the entire joint running from the radius to the cannon bone. This assembly is further supported by the joint capsule of the carpus within the horse.

Speed, Twist, Repeat

Joint problems can occur that involve any of the tissues in the knee, including the joint capsule, synovial membrane, cartilage and any of the supporting ligaments.

Speed is the major enemy of the carpus. The knee is locked in an extended (straight) position when the horse’s weight is traveling over the top of it. As the body catapults forward at high speed, it can cause overextension that brings the cartilage and bone at the front of the knee in close contact, pinching the synovium, causing inflammation and eventually wear or even causing fractures.

Another high-risk time for overextension injuries occurs when landing after a jump and when going downhill.

Horses that make sharp turns at high speed (e.g. roping, barrel racing) or do upper-level lateral dressage work subject their knees to twisting forces that can cause inflammation of the supporting and connecting ligaments, which could result in arthritic changes.

Repetitive movements may also lead to strain and inflammation in the knee, just as typing all day or working on an assembly line can cause carpal-tunnel syndrome in people. Prolonged periods of trotting, especially on hard surfaces, can inflame the carpus.

Building Blocks

A perfectly conformed knee takes enough of a beating as it is. If the horse’s conformation is not good, this only makes things worse.

• Offset Knees. The most common conformation fault involving the knee is offset knees, sometimes called bench knees. This means that the cannon bone isn’t sitting directly under the carpus when viewed from the front but is shifted to the outside.

Consequences: The head/top of the inside splint bone will be forced to do more weightbearing than normal. This predisposes the horse to inside splints and the inflammation may also involve the lower carpal bones in that area.

What to do: You can’t fix offset knees. Young horses with this conformation should be brought along slowly or you’re virtually guaranteed a splint will develop. If the horse does begin to develop a splint, do not overstress the leg with formal exercise until it’s well set up/calcified and showing no signs of inflammation. Once the splint has quieted, the area will be stabilized. Since many of these horses also toe out, it is important to trim the horse so that his foot is correctly aligned with the bones above.

• Over At The Knee. A horse with "buck knee" has knees that appears to bulge or buckle to the front when viewed from the side, rather than being flat and flush with the cannon bone. It can also be described as the cannon bone appearing to be set too far back under the knee.

Consequences: Although unsightly, this conformation usually doesn’t cause any knee problems per se. May indicate pain lower in the leg (horse voluntarily buckling forward) or that the horse had a painful condition as a foal. Horses severely over at the knee may tend to collapse on the forehand, e.g. at speed or landing over jumps.

What to do: No specific action needed.

• Back At The Knee. Also called "calf-kneed," the horse’s leg appears to bow backwards at the knee, knee set back behind the front edge of the cannon bone.

Consequences: This is a serious conformation fault that exaggerates overextension and increases the risk of overextension injuries, including fracture. Horse may also be more prone to bowed tendons and suspensory injuries.

What to do: Keep shoeing simple, no grab effect, and foot carefully balanced. It’s important not to let the toe get too long as this will interfere with breakover. Shorter toe and rounded/beveled edge at the toe makes for easiest breakover.

Put It To Use

• Know the enemies: Speed, twisting and repeated movements.

• Start simple with diagnostic measures.

• Realize your horse’s physical limits.

• Identify the cause.

Diagnostic Options

• Flexion Tests: The horse’s knee should be held in the most flexed position you can obtain without the horse obviously objecting, i.e. leg up, with the cannon bone as close to the forearm as you can get it comfortably. Support the leg by a hand under the cannon bone. Don’t flex the ankle. Do not lift up on the leg so that the knee is held higher than the knee of the leg on the ground. Hold for 60 seconds, release and immediately trot off.

Advantages: Inexpensive, no trauma and will accentuate most lamenesses.

Disadvantages: False positives possible with older horses or stiff joints and if the test isn’t done correctly.

• Local Anesthesia: Injection of anesthetic around the knee’s nerves or directly into the joint.

Advantages: Can be done at home, minimal discomfort to the horse, helps confirm flexion test findings.

Disadvantages: Doesn’t tell you what’s wrong, just where the problem is. High suspensory or high-splint problems may also block out. Some risk of infection any time a joint is entered (minimal with correct technique).

• Radiographs (X-rays): Still a mainstay of lameness workups.

Advantages: Can be done at your barn, no trauma, good for picking up chips and arthritis that has advanced to the point of bone changes, some fractures.

Disadvantages: Doesn’t give any information on cartilage disease, inflammation or ligamentous strain, and fractures that are not wide or displaced may be missed

• Bone Scan: Injection of a radioactive tracer intravenously, which will then "light up" any areas of abnormal bone.

Advantages: Most useful when problem has not been unequivocally localized to the knee, or if exam/blocks point to knee but radiographs aren’t helpful. Helpful with fractures that are not displaced and not easily seen on X-ray.

Disadvantages: Primarily picks up areas of active bone breakdown/remodeling, although inflamed soft tissue may "light up" if scans are done within the first few minutes of injecting the dye. Must be done at a full-service clinic/hospital, and horse will have to stay overnight until level of radioactivity has dropped.

• Arthroscopy: Direct examination of the interior of the joint with a small fiberoptic scope.

Advantages: Only current widely available (hospitals) technique that allows for a 3-D examination of the joint, including cartilage, synovial lining and interconnecting ligaments. Also allows for any necessary treatment at the same time (e.g. removal of chips, smoothing of cartilage, removal of inflamed synovial membrane). Short stay. Horse may go home the same day or after just one overnight stay. Horses usually have a rapid recovery time.

Disadvantages: Most expensive. Requires general anesthesia. Some risk of infection any time a joint is entered/injected.

Bottom Line

The horse’s knee is both a mechanical marvel and a disaster waiting to happen. Because of the great degree of movement required, it is stabilized to a great extent by ligaments.

Understanding the structure of the knee, how anatomy and work type influences the forces put on it, and how to recognize signs of a problem will help you keep your horse’s knees problem-free.

Navicular syndrome (podotrochlosis, podotrochlitis), sometimes referred to as Caudal Heel Syndrome, is o

Answer 13

dry hoofs aren't good either try conditioner if they are to dry...but I doubt that would cause him to fall anyways. 5' is definetly not to big for a 13.3hh especailly a Mustang because they tend to be a little hardier. I would just wait until after the x rays if nothing shows up maybe he should go to a pro trainer/have a lesson with one because it probley has something to do with his balance/collection.

You failed to put up his age...is he old or young? If he is older that could be why, and yonuer horses don't have great balance. How hard does she work him? Maybe he possibley tied up from working him to hard? If he has foamy sweat he isn;t in shape if it looks like water on him he is... could you answer some of those questions and maybe we can narrow it down...I am sure he is fine though ^^

by the way would that be considered a kid answer? :)

Answer 14

120 lbs is probably not too big for this horse if he is in good shape, like you say.

You can often tell if a horse's feet are bothering him by the way he stands, for example, in a foundering horse, he'll often stand with his feet camped out in front a little (or a lot) and he'll try to rock his weight back on his haunches.  i have seen some naviculer horses behave the same.  

I'd talk to the farrier next time he is out.  A lot of times, horses that are tripping are either landing toe-first because of heel pain (poss naviculare problems, poss hoof balance problems, etc) or their' toes are too long.  long toes are actually quite common, even in horses that get regular farrier care.

check these sites out:

www.hoofrehab.com

www.hopeforsoundness.com

www.tribeequus.com

www.naturalhoofcare.com

www.ironfreehoof.com

there are several others that are also good

a sound horse will land heel-first and will reach out with the fronts when he starts moving out.  His shoulder will look nice and loose.  A lame horse will have a shorter stride and a bracy appearance.  He may also pin his ears before he shows any more obvious signs, such as a limp.  Have a friend lead the horse at a walk and a trot in a straight line and really watch the horse's fronts - pay close attention to how he lands.  If he is coming down toe-first, you have a problem and you'll need to talk to the vet and/or farrier.

If the horse is sound, check saddle fit.  If his saddle is too tight at the shoulder, it could cause him to not move his front-end under himself.  the shoulderblade in a horse actually travels a little.  You should be able to feel the rear-most edge of the shoulderblade when the horse is standing square.  have a friend move the horse's leg forward in a stretch and take note of the movement of the shoulderblade.  If your saddle is too narrow (very common) or too far forward (and on top of the shoulders.  this can pinch and hurt and prevent the horse from reaching forward.  a poorly fitting saddle can definately cause the horse to trip.  Try fitting the saddle to him and put your hand under the front where the saddle hits the horse's bad.  If you can't get your hand in there, or if it pinches your hand, its too tight.

I'd also take that tie-down off.  It may impede the horse's ability to recover from a fall by restricting the movement he is capable of in his neck.  he might still trip, but at least he'll have half a chance of recovering if he has his head free.

Answer 15

Is he over reaching & clipping himself?  Is he tripping because he is being lazy & not picking up his feet?  Or is he just buckling at the knees & going down?

This is VERY interesting.  How old is he?

And this just started last year & has only occurred on these 2 occasions?  When this has happened, was the ground the same?  Hard packed, deep dirt or sand, etc.

Have you noticed any problems when the horse it turned out or lunged?

When he goes down, does he get right up or does he hesitate?

And this happens on his right lead only?

What type of riding was she doing with him when this happens?

Sorry about all the questions, just trying to figure this out.

*EDIT*

Hope all my questions don't upset you, I am just racking my pea brain & these are questions that just pop up!!

I will be interested in what the x-rays show for sure.  He doesn't seem old enough for arthritis in the knee or shoulder, but if he has had an injury there???  The only other thing that comes to mind is ligiment problems.  The thing that has me stumped is that he does not seem to have the problems when turned out or lunging.  That is why I asked about him just stumbling from being a little lazy since it does not seem to be a constant problem.

Keep us up dated would you?

Answer 16

My mare has tripped on me a lot. She went to her knees once and that is very scary. I didn't fall off luckily and she came right back up, but that is really scary to deal with. One of my friends said maybe she is too lazy and needs to be woke up a little bit. He said maybe take the reins and over and under her a couple of times to help wake her up.

Answer 17

Yeah, navicular is the first thing that came to my mind... darn it...but a year's gap between falls does make that seem less likely.  

Does he have any other neurologic issues, tilting the head, listing to one side?  Any warning signs?

Does he tend to stumble and catch himself and not go all the way down?

How are the toes?  Has the seedy toe grown out all the way from the prior founder?  Was there rotation of the coffin bone?

Answer 18

If you hadn't said he did it without the tiedown initially, I'd be inclined to think it is interfering with his ability to balance his front end by using his head...which still may be the problem this time.  It could be her height combined with use of a tiedown just threw him off balance as he attempted to turn.

Her weight is well within the limits he can carry, so that's not an issue.

If it happened going to the right both times, it could be related to a pain issue coming from a joint that is more stressed when working to the right.  It could just be that he tripped in the sand if he wasn't picking up his feet.

I would definitely lose the tiedown permanently if she's going to keep gaming the horse, and have a vet evaluation done.

Any horse can do this, and the fact that it's been a year since the last fall makes it unlikely to be related...not impossible...but unlikely.

I tend to think it's related to balance more than anything else.

Answer 19

I had a mustang quarter horse mix that used to fall or when we tried to ground break her she would limp. We had her checked out and her back hind leg had a crack in the bone. We gave her time and plenty of rest and she made a full recovery. But in your case you should have his feet looked at because there is a soft piece of tissue on the bottom of the hoof that is called a frog. The frog circulates the blood flow through the horses body. There might be something that is causing pressure on that tissue called the frog and he is falling to relieve the pressure when he runs. I hope this helps.