Training Question...

Question

I have a 6 yr old Appy mare I got in March whom I have started. This is not the first horse I have started but she has me wondering..... She is great with everything, she is quiet with the saddle and great with ground work, I have ridden her many times mostly trail riding, she has had issues with the cinch. I take my time tightening the saddle, she finds it annoying when it is loose I think it tickles her. She has been good once the saddle is snug, but lately when I tighten it she freezes and when I do get her to move it is in a bucking frenzy for 4-5 strides before she relizes I am still there. I have ridden her for 2 months when this wasn't a problem, but it has rearrived.

I have used the round pen to do the ground work I can saddle her with out a halter just loose in the field until recently. I have tried different saddles and the same thing happens.

My question is if you have an insight as to what I may be missing.

Answer 1

just go back to tightening it very slowly and over the course of tacking up like put it on the first or second hole and the put your helmet on and the bridle and then tighten it a hole and then wen u get on another hole and if its still too lose then walk her around and tighten it another hole.

Answer 2

I sounds like your little buddy is trying to tell you something - she wouldn't do this for no reason.

Check all under her girth area for missing patches of hair, dried crusty stuff on the girth area.  

Check what material the girth and pad is made of.  she may have developed an allergy.  I know some horses are allergic to wool, just like people so if there's wool in either of them, perhaps she's developed and allergy to them.

Once you've negated these possibilities, check the saddle fit - there may be something slight about the way the saddle fits that she doesn't like. If you need assistance ensuring it's right, a fitter can be reached or your local saddle seller or tack shop SHOULD be able to help you if they sell national brands - I know Tucker/Circle Y teach their sellers how to fit saddles - we do this for people at the store where I work.

Check for pinch anywhere - is the cinch fitting right?  When you put the whole gear on, are there pinch points at the withers, at connection points like cinch rings or where the breastcollar meets (if you use one).

The only ofther thing I can think of is perhaps she's in pain and needs chiropractic or equine massage to fix it - check with the vet or get her to one of these to insure she'd not out of alignment or in pain - feel for heat anywhere along her spine.

Try this too - when you're cinching, pull her legs up.  I usually do this with mine - I cinch just tight enough to hold the saddle on, then I grab the horses front legs behind the knee and pick their knees up toward their heads - this stretches the skin under the cinch to ensure there's no skin pinched in there.  When we lunge, I tighted a bit more before starting, stretch front legs again, then I tighten one more time and stretch after lunging before mounting.

You may also try a wider cinch if you have a narrow one - like a roper cinch that will distribute the pressure over a wider area.

Finally, the only thing I can think of is if you use a cinch or pad that's of neoprene or closed cell matieral - like the tacky too stuff - bacteria can build up in it and cause allergic type reactions in the horse's skin.  You may need to put medication on any dry skin or anything in the cinch or pad area and clean your tack very well before using again.

It sounds like you know what you're doing - but if all these things don't result in improvements, really think about what you're doing and what she's doing and what you do after she does what she does.  They can create many different things in their minds that we don't even realize - for example, even if you're not stopping and giving in after she bucks, if you allow her to stop doing what she's doing and switch to something else without consequences (after you're SURE it's not a physical reason) she may be thinking she's got you trained well to stop doing whatever it is she's doing when she bucks.  There could be slight confidence issues and when you push just the exact button, she "blows up" due to lack of confidence.

With a young horse of 5, she's still got a lot of mental growing to do until she's mature enough to really think about things before reacting.  For example, if you lunge a young horse at the gallop, it's easy for them to learn to buck first out of fun then for some other reason because they are not easily controlled at speeds.  It has been suggested to me that sound ground work at walk then trot should be in place before allowing the canter or gallop on the lunge line because it's so hard to control waht they do from a distance - allowing a horse to learn to buck is never a good thing.

Keep in mind too, if your App is close to the bloodlines Apps were originally bred from, she's likely mentally smarter and quicker than the average horse.  The Native Americans bred them to be highly intelligent - I've heard it said the more spots they have the smarter they are, and that many people won't have them because they're knotheads - in my opinion, a typical person has all they can do successfully interacting with horses of just normal intelligence - they can't successfully interact with a 1200 lb animal that's VERY intelligent.  I would say you probably have more chance that she'll learn a bad habit that may be harder for you to pinpoint because of her quick mind.

Good luck - if you find out for sure what it is, share your solution with us.

Answer 3

Something that catches my attention is you say she freezes when you tighten the saddle. This kind of situation brings to mind a training approach to desensitization called Approach and Retreat.

Before I address your specific problems, let me use a simpler situation to show how the technique can be applied. Suppose that you wanted to be able to touch and grab hold of your horses ear for ten seconds, but when you grab it she pulls away from you. This might be silly but the truth is you should be able to touch your horse all over without them being upset about it (provided you are not hurting them of course).

Using approach and retreat, the first thing is to recognize is if your horse doesn't like you touching her ear, then she sure isn't going to let you touch it for ten seconds. But how long will she let you touch it? Lets say you can hold it for 2 seconds, then she starts twisting her head around to get you away from her ear. What you do is touch her ear and hold it-for one second-and let go before the horse has a chance to think about turning their head away.

You keep doing this multiple times and then stop for that day. Then, the next day, you take her out and touch her ear for a second then let go, then touch it for two seconds and let go. If she is getting desensitized, she is going to let you touch it for 2 seconds without pulling her head away like before. If so, then up it to 3 seconds. If she pulls her head away, back down to 2 seconds again. Then try 3 seconds and keep doing this until she lets you hold her ear for 3 seconds. This takes some patience, but pretty soon the horse will be OK with you touching her ear for as long as you want.

In your case, find the point at which you tighten the cinch and she freezes up. What I would suggest is first taking a few sessions to put the saddle on and NOT RIDE at all. Before moving any further get her so comfortable with the cinch you can tighten it or loosen it as you choose without your horse feeling uncomfortable at all.

So find that point at which the horse freezes up when you tighten the cinch. Take a few times to put the saddle on and put it just one notch below where she freezes up. Then take the saddle off and go do something else, take her for a walk or something.

Then come back and put the saddle on and pull the cinch up to the point where she freezes up, but don't tie it or fasten it. Just pull it tight, let her freeze up, then loosen it after holding for a second. Do this multiple times, gradually increasing the amount of time that you hold it. Look for her to relax. Often horses let out a big breath to release tension. Try encouraging her to do that by letting out a big breath yourself after you tighten the cinch. When you can pull it tight without her freezing up, then go ahead and fasten it. Walk her around, but leave riding her until later. Take a few days off from riding and wait until you can put the saddle on and tighten and fasten the cinch without her showing signs of freezing up before you get back to riding.

As far as relaxing can you lower her head? Watch this video all the way through to show how to use exhaling and dropping the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfRVibymP...

A horse is in a more relaxed state when her head is lowered. Stand on her left side, and put your left hand at the point where the lead rope meets the halter. Put your right hand right on the top of her head. Then apply downward pressure and exhale loudly. Your horse should figure out that to release the pressure they need to drop the head. When she does, then release your hands. Keep doing this until she learns to keep her head low, a state which promotes relaxation in a horse. Your horse isn't always going to be moping around with their head down, but you can ask her to lower her head for example when you put the saddle on or before flexing. If you do it before tightening the cinch, it will help her be relaxed ahead of time.

David

http://gentlenaturalhorseman.blogspot.co...

Answer 4

Do you pull her front legs out to stretch the area that gets bunched up under the girth from tightening it? if not i would try stretching that area maybe that is what is bothering her.

Answer 5

That's Appy's for you. I have one too. Goes out and about fine....won't go in the school under saddle.

Likes to play in the school and field. Gets cranky when saddling (some times not always)  Is a huge neck winder, Whole body shake when ridden (some times not always). Prefers a bridle without nose or brow band. & I love her with all my heart

check her out

www.zebgraham-howard.org

click Enter

click Horses

click Lakota!!!!! She Is A MADAM!

Answer 6

have you tried different cinches?it may not be a saddle problem.it could be a cinch width problem or a pinching problem.try running your fingers along where the cinch runs with the saddle on but lay the cinch over the top of the saddle(use an old saddle because it may get thrown) to check if it may be a nerve problem or a vein pinch causing discomfort.if you have ruled out any saddle or cinch problem it is in the mind of your horse,remember the strongest part of a horse is its mind.saddle your horse and turn it out in the pasture for a day(just remember to tie up your sturrups) and see how she reacts to that.most smart horses find ways to test your limits and will push boundries to get out of riding,it is sometimes a test of will's(or will not's)so you have to have a stronger will than they do.

Answer 7

I think you need to have her evaluated to rule out an issue with her spine before approaching it as a behavior issue.  She was fine for two months and suddenly this recurred, which could indicate a physical cause.  I just think it's foolish to assume something is behavioral when the horse has been fine, and then suddenly has such a problem

Answer 8

once you have ruled out vet/tack/fairrier/chiropractic issues, then you can assume you have a training issue.

If the bucking is sudden and explosive, it is a fear/confidence issue.  Work your mare from the ground in a round pen without the saddle.  get her focused in on you with some circling, direction changes, and transitions.  Get her disengaging her hindquarters from the ground so she is soft and responsive.  Get her bending her head laterally in the halter.  if you can't get her soft on the ground, you aren't ready to progress.

Get your mare desensitized to the saddle pad by flopping it all over her.  Only stop when it looks like she is relaxed.  You might have done this before, but it really sounds like she needs more.  flip a rope over her back, neck, around her legs.  She should stand still, accept the rope, and relax.  Only stop when she relaxes.  Do the same with the saddle.  put it on, take it off, on, off, on off - don't even cinch it up.  and stop for the day.  That will give her one posative experience to build on with being saddled.

Next day, repeat the process.  Get hr warmed up and focused, and sack her out with the pad/rope. do the same with the saddle.  This time, cinch her up.  and take it off.  and cinch her up. and take it off.  

If she seems relaxed at this point, move her around the pen.  if she seems relaxed, do some circles, transitions, direction changes.  The same excersizes you used to warm her up.  If she starts bucking, you have to interrupt the pattern.  I suggest leaving a rope-halter and long line on her for this part, so if she starts bucking, you can flag that rope back and forth real hard to get her attention and get her doing a lot of direction changes.  Get that hind end disengaged!  Try not to let her get a full lap.  A horse that is just running forward isn't thinking.  A horse gets itself more tired when it has to stop and turn and get going again.  It also has to focus on you. Once the horse starts to relax,and she will, give her some space.  If she is being a good girl, don't ask much of her.  You want to reward her relaxation.  She will slowly realize that it is a lot of work to throw a fit.  She will also realize that you and the saddle aren't going to eat her.

Before you ever get on her again, you want several of these sessions under your belt, (several without the bucking, that is!)

Answer 9

Perhaps have her checked out (by the vet) for kissing spine - its where the spinous processes of the thoracic vertebrae touch each other and cause pain.  I think its more common in short-backed horses.  I rode a newly-backed Highland a few times and several time she just suddenly started bucking and plunging - turned out it was because of this problem.