WHAT ISNT GoOD ABOUT HYBRID CARS?

Question

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Answer 1

There's a lot of myth, urban legend, and misinformation out there on hybrid vehicle batteries and vehicle production, thanks to a flawed marketing paper by CNW and a poorly researched student newspaper article that keep getting quoted...

Anyhow, I suggest reading:

Prius Versus Hummer: A Nickel for Your Thoughts:

http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200711/...

Battery Toxicity:  http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxici...

Hummer versus Prius: "Dust to Dust" Report Misleads the Media and Public with Bad Science:

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_...

Prius Versus HUMMER: Exploding the Myth:

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_New...

Giving Directions: No, the Hummer Actually Isn't More Energy Efficient Than A Prius, Let's Put This "Debate" To Rest:

http://www.betterworldclub.com/articles/...

Heard the One About the Hummer?:

http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/s...

Usually the mythic "article" from The Mail on the nickel in the hybrid cars' NiMH batteries is quoted from a now retracted article.  The retraction that clears up this bit of misinformation is at: http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live...

(They were using data from the early 1970's about the INCO-Sudbury nickel mine, which was more than 20 years before the first hybrids needed NiMH batteries, and the plant has greatly cleaned themselves up and reforested the area.  If you were to add up the amount of nickel in the million+ hybrids sold since 1997, the total is less than 1% of the world's annual nickel production (far more nickel is used for stainless steel, for example).)

Here's the 2004 Toyota Prius Green Report (life cycle assessment):

http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji...

(you'll need to download the Japanese fonts for your PDF reader in order to read it, but the entire document is written in English.)

Over the lifespan of the Prius, when compared to a comparable mid-sized gasoline vehicle, the Prius comes out ahead in the life cycle assessment (LCA) for airborne emissions for CO2, NOx, SOx, HC, but actually does worse for PM (thanks to the material and vehicle production stages).  Measured lifespan is given as 10 years use/100,000km.  The CO2 break-even point for the 2004 Prius compared to this unnamed gasoline vehicle is given at 20,000km. (more CO2 is emitted during Prius production, but the Prius makes up for it over it's driven lifetime.)

Another neat thing is that the Prius is one of the first uses of Toyota's Eco-Plastic (plastic made from plants, as opposed to petroleum products).  The battery is recycleable (NiMH), as is much of the car (steel and aluminum body, for example).

As for the batteries themselves:

The lead-acid (Pb-A) 12v accessory batteries in hybrids tend to be smaller than those found in every traditional gasoline vehicle.  Recycling programs are in place for traditional lead-acid batteries.

All the hybrids on the market use NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) batteries, which contain no heavy metals (so they're not hazardous waste, like the Pb-A batteries), and are easily recycled.

The hybrid battery packs in the Prius have labels on them for whom to contact to recycle them.  See the HV Battery Pack Recycling section in the Prius Emergency Response Guides.

page 11 (of the printed version):

http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/1...

page 19 (of the printed version):

http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/2...

To quote Toyota's press release:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/Releases/Vie...

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_librar...

<quote>

How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the  battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle.  We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has 35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well.  Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36% and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

</quote>

Not that you have to worry about hybrid battery replacement for a very long time.  The hybrid battery is located over the rear axle and in the passenger compartment (behind the rear seat), so it is very difficult to damage in a vehicle accident.  The hybrid batteries in the currently available hybrid vehicles are usually listed by the manufacturer to last the lifetime of the vehicle, and have long warranties (not pro-rated!) to cover it. Depending on manufacturer, the hybrid battery warranty is for at least 8 years/80,000 miles, and if an AT-PZEV model in a CA emission state out to as far as 10 years/150,000 miles.  So far, hybrid battery replacements are VERY uncommon, and rarely out of warranty. Pricing is much better when buying a used unit from a wrecked vehicle (much less than US$1000 for the entire battery pack - check out eBay for examples), and not paying dealer-inflated rates/labor prices.  Old battery packs are easily recycled.

The main con about hybrid cars (other than the myth & misinformation and people coming up to you telling you that you were stupid to buy your car...) is probably the initial purchase price.  Depending on model, it can be at least $2300 more than a comparable gasoline-only car.  (See the US state of Colorado's calculations on the incremental costs of adding the hybrid system to various hybrid models.  These numbers are published and used for calculating the CO state income tax credit for hybrids:  http://www.revenue.state.co.us/fyi/html/... )

However, hybrids do cost less in the long term than their conventional counterparts. (Intellichoice used a 5 year ownership comparison in 2006) See http://www.intellichoice.com/press/Hybri... and http://www.intellichoice.com/carBuying10...

While Consumer Reports in 2006 only found the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid would pay off within the same 5 year frame. The Honda Accord Hybrid, the Ford Escape Hybrid, the Lexus RX400h, and the Toyota Highlander Hybrid were also studied. (I'll note that there was a mathematical error in the initial publication of Consumer Reports' hybrid vehicle cost analysis, which a retraction was published later...  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11637968/  Since this publication, many more hybrid models have become available, so I can't use this to say about hybrids "in general." However, in the US, the Toyota hybrids have sold so many that they no longer qualify for the US Federal hybrid vehicle income tax credit, but Honda and others still have theirs.

Just be aware that not all hybrids are created equal.  Some are more tuned for fuel economy (such as the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid), while others are more tuned for performance (acceleration/HP, such as the Lexus hybrids and the Honda Accord Hybrid).  Some are a full-hybrid design (gasoline engine or electric motor or both can work), while others are at best a mild-hybrid (auto-stop only).

Anyhow, here's my listing:

Insurance is about the same as a regular car.

Maintenance is about the same as a regular car - use your favorite mechanic or DIY if so inclined.

Same gasoline as a regular car...

Depending on model, many hybrids are holding high resale values (mainly the fuel-economy hybrids as opposed to the power hybrids).

Pros:

* Depending on where you live, tax incentives (income tax credit for US federal, some states or Canadian provinces offer income tax credits/deductions or sales tax reductions),or single-occupant HOV lane privilages (CA, VA, FL, NY), or reduced tolls (NY) or free parking...)

* better HP and acceleration than a comparable car

* better (lower) emissions than a comparable car

* better fuel economy than a comparable car

* own a neat techy car

* long warranty (depending on model, the hybrid battery or system is warrantied in the US a minimum of 8 years/80,000 miles, up to the AT-PZEV models in CA-emission states out to 10 years/150,000 miles, and it is NOT pro-rated but a full coverage.)

* you do not plug it in (charges off of the gasoline engine and recapurted kinetic energy while braking)

Cons:

* slightly higher initial purchase price

* own a neat techy car (should you need unscheduled maintenance (break down), you're mainly stuck paying dealer rates)

* many ill-informed people stopping you and asking questions about your car, telling you untruths about your own car, or even telling you how stupid you were for buying i

Answer 2

I love fuel efficent cars but the hybrid idea is just a delusion for now. there are better, more promising ideas. For example, we need to get rid of the internal combustion engine as we know it. I saw a story last week that showed a VW golf diesel hybrid that is to get 70 MPG! that makes a 45 MPG Prius look like child's play. there are also hydrogen/fuel cell cars. Honda came out with the FCX Clarity that only emits water vapor. It is just really expensive. In time these real promising solutions will become mainstream. For now, hybrids will have to do.

Answer 3

High cost to the enviroment (Nickel Mines kill everything in the surrounding area)

  China where they send the nickel to has no pollution control standards and use massive amouts of power to convert the raw metal to componets. This alone negates any (green savings)

   The componets of the car are extremely hard to recycle and as far I have read up there has yet to be one that has been recycled, Many sit in junk yards wrapped inplastic due to the dangers of the battery,

   Repair costs OUCH!

In the long run just in the energy that is saved in the manufacturing process You could own a hummer and drive it for 10 years and have less enviromental impact.

  Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles

  Here is the link if you want to read more,

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/science...

Google Sudbury and you can see the damage from space.

How "green" is that?

Answer 4

NOTHING... Actually, the cost to replace a batery does cost a lot of $$$$, but so does GAS!!!!! I still can't believe that there are people who choose to buy HUMMERS in this day and age, why not a hybrid?  They have some pretty large ones, but have nowhere near the same mpg!  Check out this one!  :

http://allworldcars.com/wordpress/wp-con...

and:

http://www.inhabitat.com/wp-content/uplo...

and:

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/51145617....

last:

http://pimpmyhondas.com/wp-content/uploa...

I love them.  Even if they don't look the coolest, they are the best choice.  It's kinda selfish to get a "cool looking" gas hogging car....  Besides, battery change once in a great while, or 70$ gas change every week or so???

Answer 5

The main thing that is wrong with hybrid cars is that they still use gasoline. I love them, but I can't wait until automobiles are manufactured on a large scale that use a renewable fuel source.

Answer 6

I had a honda. It set low to the ground, no back seat (that's where the battery was. Got great gas mileage. Not a good car to travel in, due to being small and compact. No room for luggage or groceries. The engine stops when you come up to a stop sign. (This is where you save gas).

Answer 7

nothing but just a show off of a person's luxury...letting everyone knows that he or she could aprove it...

Answer 8

you can't beat a good 'ol American V-8 with Flowmaster exhaust hy-brids SUCK

Answer 9

The Prius battery (for example) costs $3000 to replace. It is supposed to last the life of the car, but could be damaged in an accident.

Answer 10

I LOVE my 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid!

Answer 11

I personally like the concept of hybrid cars, but for one thing, they are still more expensive than the conventional cars and another limitation is the battery life and the replacement cost.  When it's getting time for the battery to be replaced (thousands of dollars), the resale value of the car is way down because nobody wants to pay for it.  When you add up these things, hybrid cars are not generally a good deal, yet.