Sarkozy said he opposes Turkey because the majority is Muslim?

Question

I would like to learn your opinions about this. Do you agree with Sarkozy? Why?

And if yes, what do you think about the 16+ million Muslims already within EU?

Answer 1

Ok Willy lets see who is NOT Christian in "your" Europe. Bosnia: Tho a sizable amount of them slain by Serbs, it still is a European country whose majority is muslim. Albania: Illyrians, ancestors of Albanians are older than Germanic ancestors of French people of today. Majority muslim again. There are around a million Turks in Bulgaria (their size may have decreased recently). Also in Gagauzia in today's soutern Moldova live Turkish people who converted to Christianity approx. 1000 years ago they still speak Turkish and Gagauzia is an autonomous country. Even a certain percentage of Kazakhstan's lands are in Europe, Turkic people of East. Im not even talking about Ottoman presence in Europe for over 500 years. We've gone as far as Italy. U can also see cultural contributions of Turks in Europe. Btw if Europe itself is christian by heritage, what boynuzlu (or call it cuckolded) Sarkozy (or should i spell it right: Sarközy) is doing there since he's half Jew? Your media has washed your brains pretty well Frenchy. Sad

EDIT: That was a big laugh for me Willy. Hmmm how to say this in a politically correct fashion. Or pffst s***w political sh*t. Man your ignorance has no boundaries. Starting from Turkish government: People did not vote for AKP in Turkey because they come from an islamist past but because the main conservative parties (central rightists) in Turkey screwed up badly by not being able to get along with each other, also not being able to govern good enough when they had the chance contributed that as well. So it's not an islamist party in the sense your occidental brain can comprehend. By far in my opinion it's Greece in Europe which is more or less governed by religion. Dont forget that sainted Hristodoulos had the power to gather hundred thousands of Greeks for any reason in the streets.

Now are we supposed to accept that there is a genocide because the diaspora in France says so? So no one got killed when Algerians tried to gain independance, yes? French murdered no one I assume? The difference is Algerians succeeded (partly) but Armenians could not. Dont buy all the shıt your government and media tell you. But well judging from your English, I guess French media is your only source for you to understand. Keep up the good work, how do you say it? Viv lâ fğans aka Vive la France

EDIT2: "Historically there is little doubt that Turkey is the enemy of the West." Hahaha that, my friend, is the best of all the nonsense Ive heard so far in this homosexual dispute. "Being enemy of the west" eh? For everyone's sake, would you explain us what in the foggin' world does that mean? How were we historically enemy of the west? Is "the west" a monolithic solid piece of thing? In the west does everyone get along perfectly well with each other? Was it Germany who took over France in WWII or a traditional eastern enemy of the west, Kuwait? Were Hundred years' wars between American Indians and France? *rolls his eyes* Give me a break, will u

Btw Im totally against the EU, I cannot stress it more. And I dont really think it'll exist in the long run. About the other stuff this user posted, I really think it's not worth replying since misinformation blending with prejudice works marvels for Frenchies and I dont have the time and will to correct him. As the song puts it, if the roof is on fire, let the mothafogger burn.

EDIT3:

-over 20% of women are illiterate in Turkey: Kurds

-incredibly high infant mortality rate: Give me numbers and source

-explain the rise in crimes of honor and their reaching the cities: Kurds again. If you claim that they are not Kurds, give your source again

Tho that doesnt change the reality that even if it's Kurds those things happen. But even Germany or Sweden cannot change them. The Kurdish immigrants continue their practices in those countries as well.

- You say: "Turks kept Muslims, different sects of Christians, and Jews live in harmony". This is not true. Christians used to account for 22% of the Turkish population a century ago, they are now 0.32% due to constant persecution.: It's called Population Exchange between Greece and Turkey. Tho true, emigrations happened. I also want to point out the persecutions that happened all over Europe recently, as French delivered Jews to Germans, we were saving them from German occupied Greek islands.

Answer 2

It seems he has said .. But as i see Europeans really don't want Muslims in EU. There was a question about Cyprus saying, What are your opinions about Turkey's  occupation in Cyprus, which is a member of EU? He / she wanted people to say: -No Turkey cannot occupy a land of EU. But nobody cared it, the only problem of them was, Turkey's religion... Yeah we don't want a muslim country. And the asker went crazy..  EU must prove what does 12 stars on its flag means, or why doesn't numbers of stars  increase, although number of members increases... Does 12 stars represents 12 disciples indeed?

Answer 3

he never said that !!!!!!

in France there is a strict tradition of laicity, we don't like the mix beween the state and a religion, it's by the way forbiden in France (separation de l'eglise et de l'etat)

Sarkozy only said that turkey isn't an european country, it's in middle east, that's all.

i don't like him, but he never said that, it'll be a scandal in France if this was true.

ps: i saw your article, but i think he speak about muslim religion to say turkey isn't in europe, cause europe is traditionaly christian, i think it's just to prouve that turkey isn't in europe.

i hate him, but on this subject, i  agree with him.

i hate religions mixed with governements...

we already have poland ! no more please!

ps2 for greeting...

i have the right to think i don't want turkey in europe, i have the right to think i hate religions AND religious people, and i'm pride to live in a country that separate religions and state !!

now, i don't say there is no muslims or whatever i europe, i knowthat ! i just try to explain the sarkozy position, which is not mine, but, i'magainst turkey in europe because i think a muslim government in europe is a danger for all liberties and progresses democratics people try to maintain.

As dangerous than poland and christian extremists, as dangerous than berlusconni and xnophobia.

freedom of speech, do you know that?

turkish not recognise armenian genocide, g*y  people have no rights in your country, and you want to be part of europe??

well , try to have democraty at first ! after, we'll can talk about that!

Answer 4

To begin with, I have some doubts about what is intended because the passage you quote simply makes no sense grammatically. I would need to see the original quote from Sarkozy in French to understand what he meant.

Whether Turkey ought to be in the EU depends on several considerations that need to be viewed in light of what one thinks the EU  might become.

Historically there is little doubt that Turkey is the enemy of the West.

All the territory that now comprises Turkey was part of the Hellenistic world and taken by force by the Turks. (true, a similar claim could be made about the Magyars in Hungary but they became Christianized early on and were quickly integrated into Europe). From their first incursions into the Christian world until their wars of conquest and aggression were halted before the gates of Vienna in 1683, the history of the Turks is of unremitting violence against the west.

Even after the advance of the Turks was halted it still took centuries to free the Christian Europeans of the Balkans from the Turkish yoke. It is hardly surprising that Christian Europeans should wonder why those same people who tried for a millennium to subjugate them should now be admitted to what is viewed by many as the precursor of a unified European state.

The nominally Christian but chiefly secular West also has doubts about the future direction of Turkey.  The transformation wrought by Kemal Ataturk was stunning but also fairly recent. Less than a century has passed since his reforms were introduced.

Ataturk deserves to be considered one of the most brilliant and inspirational leaders in human history but will his legacy endure?

Whether of not the ruling Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi is truly secular is obviously a matter of controversy. Certainly the chief prosecutor of Turkey Özyürek is concerned enough to have launched an inquiry.

It is easy enough for some of the responders to denigrate others as being uninformed but this is not so easily dismissed.

It is arguable that unlike Christianity, Islam cannot be separated from the state. The Christian principle that one should "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" has no parallel in Islam. Religious Christians can accept the separation of Church and State because Christ preached it.

Muslims have an entirely different tradition. Mohammed was the state and even led armies into battle to kill those who dissented. The principle division in Islam did not start with any disagreement about theology but about which Muslim leader would rule the Muslim empire.

Finally, especailly if the EU will at some time become a single state, Western Europeans wonder if absorbing a nation with so many cultural differences (especially when tied to religion) is a wise move. Indeed, there are even doubts about the wisdom of admitting states from Eastern Europe.

The controversy in France over the wearing of head scarves, the manifestations by Muslims calling for utterly illegal censorship, advocating violence against Danish cartoonists, the murder of a film maker, attacks on Jews by Muslims, rapes and so called "honor killings" all make Europeans wonder if they would want to co-exist in a single state with a substantial number of Muslims. Frankly, many are concerned as to whether Western European values will survive even the 16 million Muslims currently living with the EU.

Answer 5

That is so backward, I don't think that religion should be a factor in joining the EU. We are all human! I think that Turkey is very different to most other Muslim countries anyway.

I'm Macedonian, I don't want my kids to marry a Muslim as we do have different beliefs, but this is not marriage, this is business.

The Turks have come a long way, they have a lot of culture, love their food.. the kebab, baklava!! mmmmm

Answer 6

Bosnia is muslim and will be part of Europe so it's not about religion.

Turkey is NOT located in Europe, otherwise better accepting Russia , Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Egypte in europe to...

Answer 7

Willy, I have respect for your opinions but from your last editing, it is obvious that you are confusing Turkey with Pakistan or even with Afghanistan.

Yes, Majority of the population of The Republic of Turkey is Muslim, so what? Why are you so religion oriented? We are not.

Turkey is a secular, democratic country for more than 80 years now. And for your information Turkey modeled France for secularism, democracy and most of the state laws. We are very proud of being a laic country and we are, as a nation, very determined to preserve it that way.

Speaking of g**s, how do you know that they have no rights in Turkey. Have you ever been to Turkey? There are lots and loads of g*y clubs in Turkey and I bet Turkey is a very friendly and liberal place for them to live when compared with lots of places. Speaking of religions, Do you know the official opinion of the Vatican about g**s and lesbians?

Do you know that In some catholic countries some scientific researches, (especially stem cell researchs) are being constantly sabotaged because of religious issues? Do you know how many Italian couples who cannot have a baby with natural ways go to Turkey for in vitro fertilization?

You may be against Turkey's participation in EU and if you support your opinions with facts, you are so wellcome. But if you point to unresolved controversial issues as a proof and make totally incorrect generalizations, then you will be frowned upon. What you are experiencing right now (Greetings' response) has nothing to do with violation or disrespect of freedom of speech, you are just having some frowning brows.

EDIT: I don't agree with Rilifan.

It all depends if you want to take Europe backward or forward. If you do want to take Europe backwards all the historical misconceptions that you shared with us would be your truth.

When Ottomans advanced in the Balkans, reconquista of Spain was about to happen. Yet, after centuries of Turkish "cruelty", there were Christians to be "saved" in the Balkans. What happened to the Moors or Jews of Spain during the same time? Sorry the Turks have "barbaricaly" saved the Jews.

The Hellenistic Anatolia was that way since the beginning of time. No Hitites, Urartus, Assyrians, etc..... haven't been there before the Greeks. Once a land is Helenistic it no longer has a previous history I assume. And according to your European vision definitely no future.

Turks should be proud of the culture they brought to the land at a time secterian wars were going on in Europe which means nobody could dare to be of different belief than their ruler. Turks kept Muslims, different sects of Christians, and Jews live in harmony, until their "liberation" that is.

Yes, by the way, what happened to the Turks of those liberated areas?

Sorry I am aware of my mistake by asking this question who cares what happened to the Turks that lived in the Balkans for half a millenium. They were not supposed to be in those Helenistic lands anyway. 9 million uprooted and 3 million dead Balkan Turks are not important enough to add few pages of realism to European history books. That increases the papers cost.

Western Europe has been in peace with itself for half a century now. Maybe its an overstatement. This is the time Western European countries didn't have a nation to nation war. Could this really be everlasting or is it just another "belle epoque"?

European reaction to international events still prove to be very immature and prejudicially motivated. It tokk the US involvement to save the Bosnians. The Dutch troops who have allowed Srebrenica Massacres recently received medals.

With all of that in mind, I do not see how Europe by itself would be worth joining for Turkey. However Europe with Turkey could be a much nicer and stable place.

Answer 8

You mean "oppose to enter the European Union"?

This is precicely the question, Turkey is not technically in Europe, or at least the huge majority of it.   If Turkey enter the EU, why not Israel, Morroco, Russia... or...China.

If personally think it would not be a bad thing for it to enter the EU, but in this case the name of the union should be changed for "Euro-mediterranean union" or such.   To me it is quite natural that the southern shore of the mediterranean take part of a sort of union, since the mediterranean area always have been the same area of civilisation, despite the differents religions that boder it.

The religion itself is not the question for two reasons:

- In France there are not official religions, and there are french citizens of many different religions, included Islam (even if the majority is traditionally Catholic)

- Inside the EU, there are already countries with different religious backgrounds, such as catholics in southern and central Europe, protestant in the north, orthodox in the east; and probably one day Bosnia, Albania or Kosovo, which are muslim will enter the EU.

Answer 9

I'll have to second Willyag and Rillifan's answers, and I can say it because I know islam pretty well, better than most muslim people. I have read the hadiths and the coran so I know what is written in them. Islam is the ennemy of democracy, modernity, peace and freedom. If you don't believe me just read the texts and see for yourself what they preach. Radical islamists are not people who mistinterpret the texts as is too often being said, they are actually those that abide by them. Moderates are those who have been influenced by western values and do not know islam that well, they are "bad muslims".

Without going into detail, Turkey may be a secular country now but this is very much on the verge of changing. Don't you remember last year's elections? Turkey is an oddity in the muslim world and real muslims want to change that. As Rillifan said, separation of state and religion is simply forbidden in islam, islam belongs to the public sphere and not the personal sphere. It is actually a political system more than a religion. In islam, rejecting your faith = death sentence. Homosexuality = death sentence. Being raped = death sentence (for the victim, not the rapist!). Blasphemy = death sentence. This was not invented by the Taliban or the Saudi or Iranian regimes, it is all in the founding texts!

All the horrors that were done by the catholic church or even now in the US in the name of religion are done by people who do not respect christian principles. The horrors done by muslims respect perfectly what is said in the coran.

Being against islam is not being against people born muslim, it is being against oppression (islam means submission in Arabic). Being against islam is not being racist or xenophobic as islam is not associated with a particular race or citizenship, it is a system of thought (or anti-thought), it is an ideology and in a free world any person should be able to say what they think about any ideology without risking death.

As for Turkey, most of its territory is in Asia anyway. Now it may come to you as a surprise but I love Turkey, I love Turks (who protested massively in the streets last year) and I have a lot of Turkish friends (I went to an international school). I want them to be able to continue living free in their country. For them it shouldn't be a problem in the near future, they are part of the elite of the country, but what about the peasants living up high in the mountainous regions of Turkey? Do you ever think of how women and young girls live there? Women in Afghanistan and Iran also had a lot of freedom and rights a few decades ago. How is their life now? What makes you think that what happened to those countries won't happen to Turkey? All those who are about to give me thumbs down, save your energy and use it to open a book on mohammed and his life, educate yourselves!

As for sarkozy, I don't know what he said. I was just expressing my own (informed) opinion on the subject of islam in Europe.

@ Gugu: I have just read your message, which is full of intelligence and good argumentation and I agree with most of what you say. Except that :

- there is indeed a problem with a country being predominently muslim. No muslim country in the world has been a democracy more than a few decades. Sooner or later a muslim political party or leader comes to power and little by little islamic law replaces civil law (look at Albania and Turkey's recent elections). The only way a muslim country remains secular is through (often military) dictatorship, so one way or another it is never a democracy and is incompatible with European values.

- How do you explain that over 20% of women are illiterate in Turkey, how do you explain the incredibly high infant mortality rate and how to you explain the rise in crimes of honor and their reaching the cities (it's no longer just in the Kurdish regions where they have actually receded)? The facts and figures are just not in tune with the rest of the European Union, it is more in tune with other muslim countries. I am aware tremendous progress has been accomplished in the last couple of decades but I am afraid the new government's impact will reverse the tendency. I am aware there are two Turkeys, one portion that is rich and westernized, one larger portion that is poor and backwards. You obviously belong to the first group but which portion do you think will move massively to Western Europe once they become EU citizens?

- You say: "Turks kept Muslims, different sects of Christians, and Jews live in harmony". This is not true. Christians used to account for 22% of the Turkish population a century ago, they are now 0.32% due to constant persecution.

This explains why Turkey is not ready to join the EU even if it was located in Europe. Securalism is being threatened everywhere in Europe, mainly in France, Belgium and Britain, and a muslim population is the most fertile soil for islamic law to germinate and spread faster than elsewhere. 9% of Turks already are in favor of the application of islamic law.

You are absolutely right to be proud of who you are and your country and your rich cultural heritage and hope you will succeed in keeping Turkey secular. I just want you to know that fears of Turkey joining the EU are not necessarily based on ignorance and prejudice. Informed geopolitics experts and Turkish journalists themselves have been warning the west about the new Turkish government and its aims and islam is a component of the government's strategy. Islam in power means the end of democracy and freedom.