Question:

Shouldn't us anti-feminists just be more specific - i.e. which specific type of feminsm we oppose?

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For example, shouldn't most of us “anti-feminists” say we oppose gender feminism/mainstream/liberal feminism, which I tend to find is the type that most anti-feminists hate. It seems that we just say "anti-feminist" because it sounds catchy, if you get what I mean, but then we offend dozens of intelligent and honest women out there who just want equal rights for women, by generalizing all the time.

We could at least show them that we are not misogynists like some anti-feminists, by saying that we are specific type of feminism, opposed to mainstream feminism. Which we are, since we DO support women's rights – which is why the term ant-feminist is misleading. We just oppose certain types of feminism, not the basic dictionary definition.

“But more important than any mis-estimation or misunderstanding about what people valued, feminism was perceived as having positive reasons to hate the family: not only ignoring but militantly rejecting the focus of meaning in people's lives. The hostility to the family came from ideological & political reasons: any old social function that the family may have fulfilled was to be fulfilled by the state instead, much more safely and effectively, safely because children would be outside the influence of reactionary parents, especially patriarchal men. Effectively because they would be in the hands of politically sound professional "care givers." The literature was full of how wonderfully this had been working in the Soviet Union, Israel, etc. What the professionals could accomplish best, of course, was to erase the old sexist gender differences by socializing the children differently. This view rested, then, on the theory that gender differences are the result only of arbitrary social convention.

The problem with the examples cited so warmly, however, was that they were often monstrous acts of totalitarianism, and that they failed. The problem with the theory that personality and gender differences are entirely the result of environment, not heredity, is that it is indeed a prescription for just the kind of coercion and tyranny that most conspicuously tried to exploit its possibilities: if everything that we are is just socialization, then the reasonable thing is to socialize us in the best way possible, and that would be through the agency of those who know best. Those who know best, in turn, would be those politically favored, or at least self-appointed with enough fanfare. The socialization, in turn, would be a thorough indoctrination which, if done to adults, would have been called brain washing -- but then the brain was supposed to have been blank in the first place. Cambodia took this to the logical extreme: if you simply kill the parents, then that leaves the children in the hands of the state by default. Fortunately, the last line of defense against totalitarianism was the simple fact of human nature. All the power of the state could not really make the "New Man," and no amount of lies could cover that up indefinitely. The Soviet Union crumbled to reveal the people of 1913 emerging from the shadows, wanting the same things out of life that they did then, without all the bombast, promises, fanfare, and lies.”

(- by the way if you want to know today is one of my sober days)

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  1. I think we should drop the labels completely and just tell people what we believe in/don't believe in. It might help to clear up the stereotypes and generalisations, and we'd be taken as individuals. The feminists and anti-feminists might find they have more in common than they think. :)


  2. "For example, shouldn't most of us “anti-feminists” say we oppose gender feminism / mainstream / liberal feminism, which I tend to find is the type that most anti-feminists hate."

    Gender feminism doesn't exist in any capacity that I know.

    Mainstream feminism is usually socialist feminism, but not always.

    Liberal feminism is equal rights and not a lot else.  So if you oppose that, I would suggest you are in a minority amongst anti-feminists (most do believe in equal rights between men and women) :-)

    The Dude - if 'gender feminism' was coined to describe mainstream feminism, then it is probably yet another name for socialist feminism.  Equity feminism would appear to be liberal feminism.  Sounds to me like that Hoff person needs to pick up a book once in a while :-)

  3. You would be one h**l of a drunk dialer!!  LMAO  So much to say sober and all!!  

    I say everyone is entitled to their own opinions.  It gives me something to read when I come into this joint!!

  4. That would be extremely helpful, thank you.

    "One of your sober days..." LOL!

  5. Actually, the type of feminism you tend to oppose isn't liberal feminism; that's another term for equity feminism, which most self-proclaimed anti-feminists tend to espouse these days. Gender or radical feminism is what you're really up against.

  6. Sure, Modern Feminism/Fascism/Thought Control.

  7. Yes, that would actually help discussions I guess, as it would in any other forum. I remember seeing manhating feminists here, but either it's my timing or I m just plain lucky, I don't find them much anymore here. So being specific about issues helps more than what mass generalizations do. I believe in bringing out the best in people and that doesn't work if I put them on the defensive first.

    PS : 'by the way if you want to know today is one of my sober days' lol !

  8. yes yes...

  9. Yes we should. That is why I personally make it a point to state what I do/don't like about certain feminist ideologies.

    edit: continuation of my answer

    I've found that stating my specific gripes instead of saying "Feminist are evil man-hates RAWR!" gives me vastly more intelligent responses. I make it a point of telling people that I don't hate your typical, I guess garden variety feminist. The ones who are respectful and intelligent, the ones who fight for the rights of women but realize that men do sometimes get left behind. These feminists I wholly get along with. I've also found that stating my specific gripe allows me to develop a respectful relationship with these women in which I am able to effectively communicate with them.

    Doing this has given me common ground with ardent feminist such as Rio and ardent traditionalist such as Proud Stepford Wife, both of whom I've found to be very nice women even if there ideologies do sway to the left or right of mine.

  10. That could be difficult as there is no really comprehensive categorization of Feminists. It's a movement made of individuals, each with their own opinions. I'm sure you could find  irreconcilable differences in ideologies between individual feminists. It's a mass of people with a general ideology but no real leaders.

  11. bloody h**l dont you go on

  12. Feminism is on both Left and Right with so called "gender feminism" being the primary target...for now.  Gender feminism is the feminism of the Left and consists of the WAY out dated idea of a repressive patriarchy and s*x discrimination that ended for the most part a hundred years ago.  The inclusion of women in the Civil Rights Act of '64 is the primary target to eliminate this obnoxious kind of feminism.

    The feminism on the Right used to be about suffrage, mother's custody and property rights, but even women and men on the Right now endorse most of second wave feminism's goals which have been mandated for the past thirty years.  Ideological anti-feminists ("Masculist's") focus on mother's custody and advocate for father's custody.  Of course they hate and want to destroy all second wave feminist advocacies.

    Just like with women and feminism, men and masculism have a huge umbrella.  One needn't support the whole ideological agenda to call oneself "Masculist".  Women on the Right didn't support second wave feminism's advocacy then but do now.

    As for cultural feminism and s*x equality, that's a non issue since Americans have always been believers and practitioners of equality for the sexes.

    Tom Smith

    American Union of Men

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