So do you think a rider's form or substance is more important when training a horse?

Question

I think I have like 5 questions in one! Indulge me, please.

The trainer at my barn is a phenomenal trainer and rider, yet while teaching/training horses you will often see interesting things occur, like piano hands, legs forward, legs up, twisting, leaning way back, leaning way forward, etc., all with a purpose once you know what its all about. I asked him why he always hold his hands like that when training (piano hands) and then switches for showing and he says, 'it gives me more feel and more tools at my disposal.' Once the horse knows, I/his someone else can take him in the show ring and ride proper equitation as I am no longer training - he already understands and the refining has been done, until the next issue...whatever that is.' He also then trains the owner to work the horse properly to maintain. The horses he trains tell the story - they come along beautifully.

I have caught myself plenty of times doing something strange, equitationally unattractive or even terrible in some people's eyes and have always wondered what others think on the issue of form vs substance in training?

Which is more important for training?

For trainers, do you always look pretty when you're working something new or laying groundwork for more advanced things?

Do you think people who only ride finished horses develop the same feel for horseback riding as opposed to having to make sure they know and can shape where each foot lands, in general?

I've seen people do some funny looking things to get some impressive results, what about you?

Thanks!

Answer 1

I can't train and worry about how I look...I am focused on what message I am sending to my horse, and I'm sure it may look strange at times.  But forget about me.

I boarded with an internationally renowned olympic dressage trainer/competitor for four years, and saw her train every day....she used her entire body to get the amazing performances trained, and it could look odd....she saved the form for the show arena.....she focused on substance during training, and is living proof that it works.

Answer 2

Substance substance substance.  I look like c**p when I am training.  Most people probably think I have no idea what I'm doing.  But I feel the same way as your trainer...I tweak things so that they work for me and the horse and don't give a d**n if it doesn't look pretty.  I mean, I can ride "pretty" if I want to or if I have to but most of that goes out the window when I'm training.

Although I DID see a "trainer" that held onto the saddle horn constantly (every single second he was on that horse) on a horse that had at least a year's worth of riding on it.  Now THAT made me judge him.

Answer 3

This is a great question. I used to know and work with a very well renowned rider who has won multiple, multiple National Championships. She is an Equitation Rider and by far was the prettiest rider of finished show horses I have ever seen. He he he.....BUT you put her on a green horse and she could not do much and had a hard time staying on. Her whole life was Form Form Form and could not adjust her riding to accommodate the unpredictability of a young inexperienced youngster. I think for a trainer is ALL about substance. Every great trainer I have worked with, learned from and know adapt their seat, hands, legs, body position and voice to obtain results, the end result of course, always being, getting to the point where those  riders can go into the show arena and kick *** riding a finished horse that is soft, supple and  his/her cues are almost invisible.

Answer 4

Substance!  I'm partial because I've never been the prettiest rider.  However, I've always been an effective rider.  I was always the kid that people would say "Put her on x*x, she'll make him do!"  Form is important...you can't use your aids without good form, but sitting pretty will only get you but so far.  There's nothing more aggravating than being on a trail ride and someone you thought was a really good rider can't get their horse to listen or cross a ditch.  I won my fair share of shows, but just could never file down those rough edges!

People who ride push-buttons only are never any fun!  Can't get them to do anything!  Certainly can't compete in a hat-draw competition.

Answer 5

Okay first thing is first.

Substance is way more important when training - who cares if you look pretty in the practice pen as long as you are teaching the horse the correct way and feel of doing the task.

I never look pretty when riding a colt - I know that is a fact! I am consentrating on teaching the horse to move off my leg be in on the shoulder, side, or hip. I am holding my hands so that I can keep contact without dropping, I lean way back and push my butt down hard in the back of the saddle thowing my feet forward to teach the horse to stop and get into the ground - bascially I over exaggerate all of my moves until the horse understands the cues i am giving them.

I think that a developed horse is a very good tool for beginner riders to give them confidence and teach them, but they do not learn the same feel for a horse until they have been on a green one that can react 10 different ways to the same situation over and over again. A green horse will usually seperate the good riders from the not so good.

Answer 6

What the rider does with his/her body is all about communication. The prettiness is designed for the show ring!

If your goal is to teach a horse something new, you'll need to use the pressure and release resources of your body to help him understand what you're looking for...and it's not always pretty! If you know what you're communicating (i.e. please move your shoulders to the right), and you need to bring your left leg farther forward than you'd see in a show, the final judge is the horse and whether or not he understands and responds.

Absolutely, a relaxed seat, relaxed hips and heels that hang somewhere below the hips, a tall back, relaxed shoulders and carrying your own hands and head put the rider in a good position to communicate with the horse, to adapt to any situation that might arise. That's how the concept of the "pretty seat" developed - to demonstrate how it can be when your horse is totally trained and requires no corrections.

The pretty seat works with a horse who's not being asked to learn something new. In the show ring, the idea is to show off what your horse already knows and how imperceptibly you two communicate.  

Ultimately I would always look at the horses, how they respond to the rider - are they happy to offer their efforts or are they stiff and tense? If the horses like the trainer, and are happy to comply, does it matter what he/she looks like?

People who only ride finished horses just never get the chance to experience what a free-thinking horse feels like! They may have a brilliant feel for how to play with horses who understand what humans want, who have chosen to play along, and in that realm, they may be the best riders in their area. A rider can also have gifted natural feel and be able to translate and communicate with horses at levels of training that they've never experienced before, simply because they have an intuitive sense of communication with a horse. ...but there is no substitute for experience!

Answer 7

when i'm working with horses i don't sit properly sometimes, you just can't.. i was working with my QH last night and i'm training him western pleasure and he was hyper and wanting to buck around so i lean back more and  put my legs farther forward, looks different but it keeps me in the saddle in case he decides to buck and he slows down. he's a good horse just has moments and last night he had some. when working on his head i find myself leaning more forward in the saddle, and my hands are way up in the air working each rein. more so at a lope than any other gait.

yea for training its how you handle the horse sometimes the "proper" way to ride just doesn't work when training horses, its for after the horse is trained. every person does it different, and every horse needs it done different so you just adapt to what will help the horse learn and when doing that it can look a bit different.

Answer 8

I personally don't think it matters.  I have seen many excellent trainers, do similar things while training a horse. Including one that rides barefoot, not really relevant but i thought i'd throw that in there for s***s and giggles.  But theoretically if you have "perfect equation" it is easier for you to ask the horse, and easier for the horse to do whats asked of him.  When i took college equitation classes that was the basics of the books we had to read for the class.  

Answer 9

Substance over form any and every day.

I don't always look pretty riding young horses. I don't think most people look pretty riding young horses, when they start bucking your perfect equitation format isn't going to keep you in the saddle. Beyond that though, I think even when trainers are doing things that look "interesting" you still see good basic horsemanship. Good trainers don't rip a horses face in half under any circumstances and you see their natural ability to sit a horse as opposed to seeing ribbon winning position.

I don't think that people who always ride finished, push-button horses develop much feel at all... They can sit pretty and win ribbons but could never "build" their own partner. That being said, I'd still love to own a true upper level push button horse :) I'm knee deep in projects!

Answer 10

your trainer is correct, you have to do some unsightly things to teach a horse, sometimes.  as long as the horse is properly trained, tuned up, etc...no worries.  you said that your trainer is correct, while showing.  between that, and the fact that he turns out a wonderful horse, that's all that counts.

you should see me while i'm training.  you'd wonder how i get anything worth while out of my horse...lol.  

i do, very much believe, that people who ride only one type/style of horse (well trained/green/even english vs western, sometimes) will miss out on things.  that's why i strongly believe that we need to learn everything and anything we can, in order to be the best all round horse person we can be.

Answer 11

Freedom Rider.

    A trainer uses different resources to work with each horse he trains. What works on some, doesn't on others. You use methods that work well with the character of the individual animal.  Certainly substance is key to training and allows the communication process to become instilled in the animal no matter who the rider may be. Sometimes when a horse develops a contrary streak, you must take immediate and necessary action to get your control back regardless of how the action may appear. If you fail to do so, the horse has no idea what it has done wrong. Short term memory! Ahhh, but touch (piano hands) he understands.

   Form is important too, but it is not effective without substance. You need both to communicate with the animal and enhance his performance.

Answer 12

When people do the funny looking things they are emphasizing their cues, such as sitting really deep in the saddle and leaning back. After the horse realizes when you sit deep in the saddle that it means to stop then your cues get a lot more subtle. You might look ridiculous but in the end it helps your horse understand.

As for which being more important for training, I would say go ahead and look like an idiot.

When I am training a horse to learn something new I am not worried about my equitation rather than my horse learning well. When you are first training a horse something new it is not going to look pretty, it will look rough and unattractive.

I do not think that people who ride only finished horses get the same experience as the one who has trained. I believe that training a horse yourself give a much better feel for the horse and for horses in general. It teaches you a lot more when you have a difficult horse that you have to work with instead of just being able to hop on a push button pony.

Funny looking things get great results.

Answer 13

Good question, I will be looking back to see ohter people's answers.

I think form is more important than substance for only one real reason. If you don't have your legs, seat, hands, etc. in the correct place, you won't be able to achieve clear corrective aids, therefor nto communicating with your horse in the clearest way possible. I have seen some proffesional trainners look horrible on top of there horse with there legs way forward and hanging onto there mouths, using the reins to hold them up instead of there body. To me that is a short cut in trainning, taking the easy way out. I don't think you are always going to look pretty when you are starting something new in your trainnin, but I think it is important to retain correct position so your horse has to learn to come to you instead of you adjusting into some funny pose hoping your horse will learn it faster. Sure people can do funny things to get impressive resluts, but they are short term. They might work for a year, but what happens after that? The horse stops responding to it and does whatever it can to get out of it. I don't know what kind of riding you do, but I have ridden in multiple disiplines before, including saddleseat. You see trainners in this disipline bit up the horses and siy way far back with there legs forward try to get the horse to get his legs up higher. After a few years, the horses are deemed crazy or unrideable becasue there trainning has been so screwed up. They become very sensitive to the techniques that were used on them and have to be retired at young ages becasue they will not longer listen to the aids that worked on them before

Answer 14

It depends on what type and stage of training you are doing.  I train horses that are usually untouched.  Once I get them trained to ride and do the basics, the owner takes them to a dressage trainer or hunter/jumper trainer to be refined.  So for me it is primarily about substance with form always in the back of my mind.

For my personal horses, I train entirely for substance.  There is a lot going on when you are training a horse, and the "substance" side of things becomes much more instinctual.  However, when I am training for others, I have to remember the "form"  the form aspect of things is what makes riding universal.  What I mean is that I know if someone jumps on my own horses they won't get far - if my horses even let them get on them; but if I am training a horse that is meant for someone else, I have to make sure there is enough form that the other rider will be able to work the horse.  So a trainer needs to keep both things in mind and know when to yield to one aspect over the other.

Do I think people that ride only finished horses lack some riding ability - YES!

You don't necessarily need to break horses, but you need to get a few green ones under your belt if you want to call yourself anything more than an intermediate rider.