Texas Holdem common spot (except you are deep...)?

Question

BB plays really weird and does alot of random **** and likes to bluff. Its 275 dollars deep. .5/1.

You have JcJs on the SB. It is folded to you and you raise to 3. He calls.

KJ8 two diamonds.. SWEET. Pot is 6. You bet 5. He calls.

Pot is 16. Turn: 7d. You bet 12 (mistake 1?). He raises to 48. Heres the problem. I know he is capable of doing this with some random float or something so his range is quite wide. Of course, he does this with a flush too :( and he has position.

River is a 2s. Pot is 112. HE POTS THAT ****.

Wtf do i do?

Answer 1

the first mistake you made in the hand was not the turn bet, it was the flat-call on the turn raise...i think considering his range and the number of possible draws on board, you have to go ahead and re-raise him back, probably for all your chips considering the pot size...there are just too many combo draws for him to have where he could be making a semi-bluff here, i won't even begin to list the possible hands...also, if you happen to run into a flush or straight, you aren't drawing dead here...you have to go back over him here unless you have some reason to believe you are absolutely beat

the way you played the hand, you have a total read-based decision here, you just have to go with your feel...sans read, i would say you just have to call him down here, and hope that he shows you a missed draw, you only have to be right 1 in 3 times to break even

edit: the only reason i would check on the turn would be to lose the minimum against a flush, in which case you would c/c the turn and c/c the river if there's no diamond and no improvement for you, i'm not sure if that would be your plan but that's what i think...anyway, both of your points against the re-raise all-in on the turn are valid, but that still doesn't make the call the best play...first of all, if you just call the turn because you want him to keep bluffing, then the river is a must-call otherwise you are totally invalidating your turn play...you are making the decision much more difficult by just calling the turn because you won't know where you're at on the river, which is exactly what happened...and while you don't get called by many hands you beat on the turn, your intention with the shove is that you think you have the best hand but don't want to be forced to guess on the river, which is again the exact situation you found yourself in...and as one final point for the shove, if you are beat you do have some outs, although you're still drawing slim...all in all, i think there is too much guesswork involved with calling the turn, you can shove or feasibly you can fold if you are convinced you are beat but i think calling creates too many problems

edit2: i guess i can live with b/c on the turn and calling any nondiamond river, the problem i see with it is that not everyone is good enough to stick to their guns when they make up the plan beforehand, and end up second guessing themselves...and you're still in my contacts, so hey i still get to see the questions i need to see lol

edit3: i think this is the first time i have ever said this to you, but there is absolutely nothing i can add to your assessments of the other answers, you picked them apart perfectly

Answer 2

I don't see anything wrong in how the hand was played out.  You made a nice pot builder raise pre-flop, but you are out of position so this is the only bad thing about this hand. I might have made more of a raise pre-flop maybye up to 5 dollars since my position is so bad here. Now the flop is pretty good for you, less the fact that you have a lot of draws out there, so a bet is a must in this spot. The bet on the turn is ok here, you made almost a pot sized bet, that lets the other guy know you hit the flop. If you over bet the flop here you lose your action and only win a small pot, so this bet is fine. I also don't mind the turn bet either, if you check the turn your asking to be bluffed by the scare card. So by betting 3/4 of the pot is another good bet. But the raise is a big danger sign for you. The only real mistake in the hand is just calling the re-raise on the turn, you either fold at this point or push all-in. But since i don't have enough info on the other player i think i let the set go here, even though i may have the best hand at this point. i might put him on just a king or a hand like 2 pair, or of course the made flush is a real hand he could have since he was in the blind here as well. But by just calling the re-raise you have now let him take over the hand, and on the river you are not likely to draw out if he does have the flush, so you are either all-in or you check the river and let him lead out again. By pushing all-in on the turn he either folds a bluff, he calls and shows you the flush, or he calls and shows you the 2 pair.

EDIT: In the words of chris jesus Ferguson'' if you are thinking of calling or folding, you should fold. And if your thinking or calling or raiseing, you should raise''. I play poker the same, i never give control of a pot up. You should always put the pressure on the other guy. You said you are checking the turn to get him to bluff. Now first he is not bluffing in this spot, he has a hand, it's just that knowing what hand he has is the issue here. I would put him on the two pair as i have said, but the flush is very real hand here, If he is bluffing the turn on a semi-bluff the all-in will put him to the test, he could very easyl have a hand like Q-10 with the queen of dimounds here, so if he calls then he misses and you get all his chips, and if he folds that ok as well. I alwasy make other players pay to draw out. As for me not being on here i have had some other stuff going on, so i've been out of the loop but all is well and im now back.

Answer 3

Never let people see cards without paying for them when there is a straight or flush draw on the board.  Letting him see that 3rd diamond for only $5 was a mistake.  At that point, you need to decide if he has the flush or not.  If you think he does, get away from it.  If you think he's bluffing the flush, hammer him.  Of course, he could also have pocket Ks.

The problem with the bet on the turn is that when he went over the top, it put you to a big decision right there and gave him the power in the hand.  If you had thrown out a bigger bet, he might not have come over like that.  

How does he usually play big hands?  Does he like to over bet them, or does he slow down?  That's the best clue you have as to what he has.  If he usually slows down, he probably doesn't have it.  If he likes to over bet them, he might.

Answer 4

I am assuming you are playing in a ring game with the ammounts you are talking about.  The problem I am seeing with your play is you are playing like it is a tournament.  A 3xbb bet on a decent pocket pair is not a good bet in a ring game, period.  You have done nothing but invite callers with any kind of drawing hand imaginable.

You have to play totally different in a ring game, standard tournament bets go out the window.  The reason for this is simple and almost always over looked by people changing from tournaments to ring games.  The size of the bet relative to the size of the blinds changes, drastically, because, the blinds are not changing and will remain the same size the whole game, they will always be only one dollar, and a 3 dollar bet is not going to run anyone off if they have any suited connectors, suited ace, connectors, over cards, small pair, etc......it just wont.  I know I would call in possition with any of those hands, and any other cash player would too.  

On the flop, if he had 2 diamonds, a/q. q/10,10/9 or a naked k in his hand, he is going to call a bet that size, while he isn't probably getting odds to call, he isn't far from it....he is getting over 3 to 1, 5 dollars for a 17 dollar pot (if the bb folded).  Alot of folks will convince themselves they are getting the odds, especially an aggresive player.  While I see you don't agree(due to someone else's answer and your response), you under bet the pot on the flop.  However, you were the first to act, and he is a very aggresive player, why didn't you check raise him? You surrendered the hand the second you let him take control on the turn.  That is what I see wrong, you should have re-raised on the turn when he potted it, you knew you were going to face a bigger decission on the river and you still had only the information he wanted you to have. If he only called your re-raise, you are good, if he re-re-raised, well you can lay down then or push.  While he could have made a flush, the way he played it isn't like it was the nuts, he played more like he had a smaller set, or maybe k/j for two pairs.  

Possiton can be minimized by taking control of the pot and KEEPING control of it.  A re-raise was in order.

You say he plays weird, the question is, how does he think you play?  In a cash game, I would almost describe your play as passive, like you are scarred you are going to loose more. (sorry you asked for our oppinions).  I say this because you had second set, and you totally turned control over to him after the turn.  He played good, if in fact, he felt you are a rather passive or tight player.  

IMO your first mistake was the preflop raise, not enough.  2d mistake was your bet on the flop, either check raise, or bet more, your call.  3d mistake, you basically surrendered the pot on the turn, you gave him control, and an aggresive player with the nuts slows down without realizing it alot of times, he didn't slow down, he probably didn't  have the nuts.

Remember, always put the tough decissions on your opponent, don't let him do that to you.  Learn from what you feel was your mistake, I hope my opinion helped (that is all it is, an opinion). Good luck.

this is my attempt to answer your response to me, i have since read some of your answers and I see you are an online player, I have attempted online ring nlhe games at most of the common limits played online and I just get too bored with them.  for some reason I dont get bored playing in tournaments and non-nlhe ring games (stud and its variants and omaha and it's variants) online.  I do play nlhe in brick and mortar card rooms 3 or 4 times a week and have done so for along time (the reason is it is hard to find many other games spread anymore).  I know that where I play (Biloxi, and all the fla. card rooms now) a 3x preflop raise is considered a pot building raise, and is never used, or very rarely used, in the senerio you described.  It is used in late possition with drawing hands with a bunch of limpers ahead of you, similar to a raise with an a/2/4/5 in omaha 8ob ring game.  I miss read the preflop facts and I did not realize he was the bb as for the pot odds.  I see alot of college kids playing in florida that play that way (they play alot online) when they first go to one of the card rooms, but they get busted out very quickly,  I am refering to 3xbb raise with a big pp and carry on about fish, etc.  I have also played in alot of rooms in Vegas too for 1/2, 2/5 nlhe and generally the same applies there too.  You didn't have how folks preceived you in your question which has been cleared up for me, that explains some of your response.  As you know, there are many sucessful styles of poker out there, that each have strong followings, like I said, mine is just an oppinion, I still think you let him get control and ended up with you having to make the tough decissions, if that wasn't so, you would not have asked the question. I am curious though, how did the hand turn out?

You say you wanted him to bluff at it, the problem is, with that board, and a scare card comes, how do you know he is bluffing? I will trap all day long like other players, however, if the flop is coordinated, and it was with both a flush and a straight draw, sneaky play goes out the window.  It is time to run those drawing folks off, because with a set what do you do in a situation when either the flush or straight card hits????(on the turn in your hand, not only did a flush card hit, but so did a straight card, 7d the worst possible card to hit for you)  You got put in a bad situation, period, and you let yourself get put there, I would over bet the pot on the flop, but then again my pot would have been bigger due to a bigger preflop raise, and had he called that, the chances of him being on a draw have been decreased a little bit.  I would much rather win a pot of 11 or so dollars than loose a pot the size you are contemplating.  It sounds like you are playing catch up, if so that is dangerous poker, you are thinking about your loses more than what is the proper play. There is nothing wrong with you giving off the tale you are strong as all get out on the flop, that is what you want the other to think, makes them think long and hard about pursuing a draw.  Once again, that is just my opinion, good luck.