To all of the folks that tried to crucify me for my views regarding coersion?

Question

You really need to do some homework before you start spouting off.

To the people that say that the reason why a birth mother doesn't get a good lawyer is because she can't afford it. Do your homework. The birth parents don't pay the attorney, the adoptive parents do.

To the people that ask how the birth mother is supposed to know whether the decision can be withdrawn. Do your homework. This information is provided to the birthmother during the initial consultation. However, the easiest answer to this question is "Ask". There is not a single REPUTABLE attorney that has any level of experience with adoption that is going to blatantly lie about this. The attorneys do not charge for the initial consultation, so she can shop around.

I think it is truly tragic that there are women that are forced or coerced by their family and friends into adopting. There is nothing that you, I, or anyone else can do about that. However, it isn't the adoption process that has the issue.

Answer 1

"The birth parents don't pay the attorney, the adoptive parents do."

Can you please explain why this is not considered a conflict of interest?

Thank you!!

Answer 2

yup!!  I second that motion

Answer 3

sounds like a viable argument to me.

Answer 4

Just an FYI, in many cases there is no attorney for the birthmom.

They do not go in front of a judge and swear that they are not being coerced into placing the child for adoption.

Many times it is just the hospital social worker and a rep. from the agency.

Find out the facts before you start writing things that are not always the case.

Answer 5

LC, it is awesome that you do things ethically and above-board. I mean that sincerely.

The problem is that not all agencies and attorneys do things the way you do. And THAT is my goal--to get laws in place that force agencies and attorneys to behave ethically. Not to abolish adoption... to make it ethical across the board.

I agree that ideally a woman would ask every question she needs to in order to ensure she's working with a good agency. The problem is, most of these women are in crisis when they approach an agency/attorney. Their hormones are out of whack, they're overwhelmed, they're scared, and most of them don't know c**p about the legalities of adoption. So rather than place the burden on THEM to somehow ask questions that don't even occur to them, I think the burden should be on the agencies to provide them the info upfront.

Right now there are no informed consent laws when it comes to adoption like there are for medical procedures. Right now, if you get your wisdom teeth removed for heaven's sake, the doctor must warn you about the possible effects of anesthesia... even the very, very remote effects (like death). But somehow, agencies are allowed to let women give their children away and NEVER warn them of an increased risk of depression, PTSD, suicide, substance abuse, and so on.

Not every agency and attorney is unethical, no. But too many are. Some of the BIG ones, with "good" names, are. So I DO think this is a flaw in the process. I think it is a flaw that agencies don't have to provide informed consent.

In the meantime, while I'm waiting for my legislative advocacy to make a difference, I think it is important for potential adoptive parents to KNOW that not all agencies are protecting biological moms' rights. Because if all the potential aparents refused to give their business to the unethical agencies, those unethical ones would be forced to either change their practices or get out of the business. That is why I am here, on  Yahoo.

AND it is important for expectant moms to know that adoption IS harder than some agencies make out. Again, another reason I'm here, on  Yahoo... to warn them, so that they MIGHT actually know what to ask an agency, or so that I can give them some info their agency/attorney might not give them.

And I have to say, I have some serious concerns about adoptive parent money funding the mom's lawyer. It's really a conflict of interest at a basic level. That's not to say all lawyers just cater to the adoptive parents... I'm sure many truly do represent the mom to the best of their ability... but I'm also sure there are some who know, in the back of their mind, that their paycheck is coming from the adoptive parents and thus would prefer to see the adoptive parents happy (who doesn't want their paying customers to be happy?).

So yes, there ARE flaws in the system, flaws that could be addressed with some government action. The fact that the unethical agencies are allowed to exist at all is a flaw.

Edited to add: AH2911, you said, " by AH2911 Member since:

January 25, 2007

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I agree, and I also think that there's a lot of confussion about the term "coersion" which means "force or threats used to make somebody do something against his or her will" *

There are definetly cases where woman are coerced into placing her child fpr adoption, and this is terrible, but as you stated most times it is the mother's family, friends or birthfather who are leading her to believe that she MUST choose adoption.

There are also some unfortunate cases where unethical agencies or facilitaters have tricked women into signing papers, or when they are heavily medicated, or told them that they would have to repay expensive fees if they changed there minds, however these practices are illegal and major ground for having an adoption contested, and "undone".

Reputable agencies DO inform expectant mothers of their rights. I know a couple of women who "changed their minds" during the adoption process after being matched with prospective adoptive parents, and several adoptive familes who were matched with an exp. mother who decided to raise her child rather then adoption. None of these womwn were forced to place their children against their will.

If an agency councells a woman that adoption would be a good option for her child and herself, and then after signing legal documents, months later decides that she made a mistake, and wishes she had not chosen adoption, this is NOT coercion."

You are right, this is not coercion, but it is unethical. It's unethical because it violates the ethics directives of counselors who are supposed to provide non-directive counseling for their clients.... so the counselors should not be telling women adoption is a good option, to begin with. Of course, most of the people counseling moms in an agency aren't actually licensed counselors... they usually have bachelor's degrees, not masters or doctorates... which is something else that needs to change. It really ought to be illegal for anyone to be called a counselor when they are not, in fact, a licensed counselor.

Answer 6

thats about the size of it...Thanks!!!!

Answer 7

Maybe the family & friends know the birth mother isn't capable of raising a baby.  She could be too young, addicted to something or just not caring enough.  

Raising a child is a lifetime commitment. Anyone mature enough and financially stable would not be coerced if they truly wanted the baby. Anyone not mature enough or financially able should think of the child first and what situation will be best for the baby!

Answer 8

Maybe you need to do a little "heart" homework, and think about what it feels like to know that your mom was coersed by an agency, social worker, or any other authority figure into placing, and that a situation in which she would NOT be able to chang eher mind after the birth was encouraged.

Or what it would be like if it happened to you. It happens to a lot of us. It's not about statistics, it's about the sheer numbers of women who are in so much pain after losing their children they can barely breath.

And about the reality that a lot of those adoptions don't NEED to happen.

If you are all about making sure those adoptions happens anyways, then that's the kind of life you want to live. Have fun not caring about misery that you are involved in creating for others.

And that means we have goals that are exact opposite. Again you're saying that an expectant mom should trust the ADOPTIVE parents attorney???

If you don't see how that is back-asswards then I don't understand how you can make any claim at all.

I think you should consider that there are many forms of coersion, some falling into the lines of illegal coersion and some falling into the realm of pressure, or incentive to follow through with an adoption "make an adoptive family happy" etc etc.

I'm not sure at all, if you can't put yourself in the shoes of a woman who is facing a crisis pregnancy, insecure about raising a child as a single mother, but yet wishing to keep her child with all her heart. If you can't do that, then how would ever understand how coersion or "pressure" would make her feel? And do you have any compassion for these women afterwards or do you not care as long as the baby is gotten from the legally?

Answer 9

OK, so, let me get this straight...

The ADOPTIVE PARENTS' pay for the bmom's lawyer

The ADOPTIVE PARENTS' lawyer makes sure the bmom get's "counseling"

I'm sure the bmom will get good "counseling" all right, she'll get "counseled" right out of her baby...after all, no adoption=no paycheck.

If the ADOPTIVE PARENTS are paying for the lawyer, then just whose interests do you think that lawyer is going to serve?  Certainly not the bmom, because no adoption=no paycheck.

Yep.

Doesn't take a hydrogeologist to figure that one out.

Answer 10

LC you said "There is not a single REPUTABLE attorney that has any level of experience with adoption that is going to blatantly lie about this."  True.  Unfortunately, attorneys who represent unethical adoption agencies or unethical adoptive parents are not uncommon.  And sadly, expectant parents are prey for these slime balls.  The lack of regulation in the adoption industry allows the unethical adoption facilitators to operate unchecked.  That is a huge issue in the adoption process and gives adoption a black eye.

Answer 11

Crikey LC - crucify you????

I thought attorneys had thicker skin than that??

I still see HUGE problems with adoptive parents paying for the attorney.

Also - as has been shown by the cases put forward - coercion DOES happen - and the main reason - expectant mothers aren't shown ALL sides.

I'm glad you have put out some good info of what SHOULD happen - and maybe just one expectant mother out there will look into the process a little more closely - rather than blindly accepting the information given to them by the adoption agency and the adoptive parents.

At the end of the day - wouldn't it be better if the adoptive parent could say - I know - with all of my heart - that my child's mother was categorically NOT coerced in any way - and that she had sufficient and fair time to make all decisions that were being made - without pressure from their side.

It SUCKS being given away by your mother - trust me - I've lived it - and unless you have - really - you'll never know what that feels like.

If it can be stopped when it really doesn't NEED to happen - all the better for that child.

Answer 12

I agree, and I also think that there's a lot of confussion about the term "coersion" which means "force or threats used to make somebody do something against his or her will" *

There are definetly cases where woman are coerced into placing her child fpr adoption, and this is terrible, but as you stated most times it is the mother's family, friends or birthfather who are leading her to believe that she MUST choose adoption.

There are also some unfortunate cases where unethical agencies or facilitaters have tricked women into signing papers, or when they are heavily medicated, or told them that they would have to repay expensive fees if they changed there minds, however these practices are illegal and major ground for having an adoption contested, and "undone".

Reputable agencies DO inform expectant mothers of their rights. I know a couple of women who "changed their minds" during the adoption process after being matched with prospective adoptive parents, and several adoptive familes who were matched with an exp. mother who decided to raise her child rather then adoption. None of these womwn were forced to place their children against their will.

If an agency councells a woman that adoption would be a good option for her child and herself, and then after signing legal documents, months later decides that she made a mistake, and wishes she had not chosen adoption, this is NOT coercion. Women DO need to be offered more options and support, families need to be more helpful and understanding, but agencies aren't usually the "evil baby stealing industries" that they are sometimes made out to be.

It's sad because this adoption section could be used as a great place for adoptive parents, adoptees and first parents to get real answers to important answers, and really learn from each other and there different perspectives. However, lately it's become a debate on whether adoption is wonderful or horrible, with many people going to extremes to prove their points. I hope that can change so  that askers can be educated rather then lectured.

Answer 13

Well said LC

And thank you AH2911

What a great answer.

Answer 14

so what are you looking for here LC that adoption is wunnerful?

rox.... i'm leaving this one to you.... pffft

Answer 15

right on!