To avoid more sad fatalities like Eight Bells is it time that top American Classics were run solely on turf ?

Question

Having said that not just Classics but all races.

Would appreciate all your thoughts on this.

Answer 1

it has nothing to do with that. and the sand is softer beleive it or not.

horse's bones aren't fully developed until they are 4-5 years old and seeing that eight belles was only a mere 3 at the time of the derby, she must have started her training under saddle at 2. THAT is why i think it happened and i will believe that no matter what any scientist tells me. They literally run these poor race horses to their death and no one ever does anything about it. this time it might be different though becasue the Derby is so public and that's great.

Answer 2

No.  Perhaps all dirt tracks should go to polytrack.  However, horses can break down no matter what surface they run on.  The problem with shifting all racing to turf is that a lot of the greatest horses can't do anything on turf... and dirt is our traditional surface.  So I don't see us making a sudden shift to turf.

In my opinion, what we need to focus on is the breeding.  We can make the safest surface in the world, but if we keep breeding our horses to be weak, they're going to get hurt no matter what we do to improve the surfaces.  Mr. Prospector is a cornerstone in modern American racing, but he comes from the Native Dancer line and that breeding line accounts for more injuries than any other.  I think we ought to have requirements for stallions... if a certain percentage of your progeny have severe injuries, you don't get to be a stud anymore.  The other argument I've heard is to outlaw all race day medications... I guess the argument there is that if the horse hurts, it won't run well, and if it doesn't run well, it won't become a sire and pass on it's weaker genes.

Answer 3

not really....try looking at horses as people...

horses are transposed from their winter into someone elses summer....they suffer jetlag like you would

these tracks also pay appearance money to make it worthwhile the owners sending them across the world to race...some horses are better on dirt some are not,,,its like everything else nowadays...

money is the root .and equine welfare is a secondary consideration...

Answer 4

keep it like it is....horses break-down everyday around

the world. some of us play the ponies everyday, not

just 4 times a year, when the world is watching.

it's funny, when that low-level 9 year old gelding

broke down after 84 career starts, and was put

down, all they do is turn the program to the next

race.....???? now that horse gave it all for years!!!

Answer 5

Some really interesting points on here and I agree, and disagree, with a lot of them.

There are many factors that American racing needs to take into account.  This time I don't think the outburst of public feeling is going to go away - something needs to be done.

In my opinion, and it is my right to have an opinion, I do not thiink that dirt is the best surface to run horses on at all.  The synthetic surfaces, or all-weather, that is used in Europe is far safer than "dirt", and turf is far safer than both.

For a start the racetracks never get "sloppy" as dirt tracks can - look at what happened at Monmouth Park at the Breeders' Cup meeting - are you telling me that is a good surface to run on?

The second point, as previously raised, is breeding.  The American thoroughbred has been bred over generations for speed, speed and more speed.  This results in the demand for a lighter horse, and thereby a lighter skeleton, that is more prone to damage.  Look at European races, we have races on the flat for distances from 5f to over 2 miles.  It's called variety and the American racing authorities need to start introducing it back in.

Also on the breeding front we need to stop breeding from poor quality horses, or those that race on medication.  In Germany a stallion cannot get a license to breed if he has raced using any medication.

The third point is medication.  Ban it, ban it all now.  America is the only major racing country that permits the use of race day medication and it needs to stop.  The horses don't need it - if a horse is in pain or sore and stiff DON'T RUN IT.  If a horse is prone to bleeding - DON'T RUN IT!  I've heard some people say that they don't think anti-bleeding drugs like Lasix/Salix are performance enhancing, well they are.  These drugs are diuretics and a horse that loses water loses weight and has an advantage over others.  I know this because my boss was a jump jockey in his younger years and he has told me that he took Lasix to help him lose weight before a race - it works!

I don't agree that raising the minimum racing age will make that much of a difference.  Thoroughbreds are bred to mature faster than other breeds of horse, and research has shown that introducing horses to work at a young age encourages greater bone density and therefore reduces the risk of breakdowns.  In Great Britain in the last few years a series of National Hunt Flat races has been introduced for three year olds only to encourage this fact.  Traditionally a jumps horse would not run until four or five years of age, but research has shown (I can't for the life of me remember who conducted the research!) that starting to race earlier helps to reduce the risk of breakdowns.

Finally, and this is the most important factor I think, is that American racing needs to remove the individual state controls and have a country-wide organisation that sets the rules and enforces them - much like The British Horse Racing Authority in the UK or the Turf Club in Ireland.  This organisation would be in control of jockey and trainer licenses, the overseeing of racetracks (to make sure they are safe and up to standard) and most importantly the punishments for rule breakers.  For too long the state authorities have been too soft on rule breakers and it is about time someone took the culprits in hand and showed them who is boss.

Thank you for posing this question, it has raised some interesting points and I am sure the arguement will role on.

Answer 6

Whether races are run on turf or on dirt makes no difference whatever- horses are going to continue breaking down and dying, regardless of the surface they run on, until the powers that be who run racing take off their rose colored glasses and starting looking at the REAL causes of these tragedies. Get real, folks- the simple fact of the matter is that these horses break down because THEY ARE BABIES !!! A 3 year old horse is equivalent in its bone development to a 9 year old HUMAN child. We would NEVER ask a 9 year old kid to run a mile and a quarter, or a mile and a half, on a heavy dirt track with over one hundred pounds strapped to his or her body- but we have NO QUALMS whatever about doing this to a young horse. Why??? Because the alphabet of most owners and breeders these days has only 5 letters in it, and they spell MONEY. Put another way, these letters also spell another word- GREED. Until enough people realize this, the likelyhood of ANY type of real reform in racing is about as high as a lighting strike happening during a major race.

Running races on turf is just a panacea, at best- it's not a permanent solution. The real change has to start LONG BEFORE any of these young horses ever set foot on the track- in fact, it needs to happen long before any of them are even BORN. I have long advocated raising the minimum racing age to 4 for the baby or juvenile races, and 5 for the graded stakes, but I am enough of a realist to know that right now, the economics of the breeding and racing industries ( which make ZERO sense, might I add) make this utterly impossible.

Think about it for a few minutes in a logical, common sense way. Last time I checked, the average stud fee for a top sire like AP Indy or Afleet Alex was anywhere from 100k to 300k a pop, and THAT'S JUST FOR THE STUD FEE. That does NOT include mare care, feed bills, vet bills, farrier bills, costs for the foaling attendants, board at the breeding farm for the mare ( and for her foal once it's born) transportation costs if the mare must go off her home farm to foal or to be bred, and on and on and on- the list of expenses associated with supporting a pregnant TB mare is limitless- and the costs are only going one direction-UP !!! Put all of this together, and it's not uncommon for breeders and owners these days to spend upwards of a MILLION or more dollars BEFORE A FOAL IS EVEN BORN !!! This simple fact is the REAL REASON and driving force behind the push to start these baby horses under saddle and in training at such young ages. Breeding horses isn't getting any cheaper, and when owners and breeders have to make such huge investments in order to produce a foal or young horse, they need to have a way of recouping some of that money, or they couldn't stay in business themselves, let ALONE provide jobs and incomes for the people they employ to run their farms. So not only is there tremendous pressure on the breeders and owners to start babies too young, but the horses are impacted in another way as well- and this has to do with what happens to the babies once they are weaned from their mothers at about 5 or 6 months of age. In most of the breeding industry, there are two sets of horse sales which are held annually- one in fall and another every spring. In order to get the youngsters ready to be presented and sold, it's a common practice to overfeed them and make them fat- because bloodstock agents and potential trainers will not, as a rule, buy babies which are underdeveloped or thin. In a nutshell, fat sells- and the breeders know this. But this overfeeding doesn't come without a price- many times, the result of it is that the young horse grows much too quickly, and such babies will often develop problems with their bone structure such as epiphysitis. Epiphysitis and conditions like it weaken bones and make them more likely to break under stress- which in turn raises the risk of a fatal breakdown when the young horse starts race training. I believe that Eight Belles was a victim of this kind of practice, the way many young TB horses are. The excess weight which these babies are forced to gain in order to make them look good in the sales ring is another cause of serious problems- because what frequently happens is that whichever trainer gets these yearlings in his string must spend many months after the sale carefully working to get the weight off these horses so they can race as 2 year olds. Ruffian's trainer, Whiteley, ( who incidentally, died last Saturday at the age of 93) faced this problem with her and with every other yearling in his string.  I remember hearing the talk about how tall Eight Belles was prior to the race- and she WAS HUGE. In fact, she was MUCH TOO TALL for her age and gender- and I believe that that this was largely due to a combination of poor genetics, AND overfeeding as a yearling. Ruffian had the same issue,over thirty years ago, with almost identical results.

These things come about because of the enormous pressure on the breeders and owners to sell these horses as yearlings, so they can so a profit and keep the farms the babies were born on in the black. If you add in the astronomical costs of stud fees, and all the rest of the enormous expenses involved in breeding horses, I think you can begin to see why the economics of this industry make no sense to anyone. Raising the minimum racing age would help to alleviate at some of these problems by giving the babies a chance to grow up and become more mature before they are raced or trained- which in turn would save a LOT OF LIVES. It might also change the way young horses are conditioned and handled on the farms before they are sold- which also might well prove to be a HUGE lifesaver. Putting caps on stud fees and expenses would be of enormous benefit as well- and it would make the breeding business more affordable for the small time breeders.

The other major issue which must be addressed in order for there to be real, lasting reform in the racing business concerns what goes on in the breeding shed at farms across the country and around the world. All modern Thoroughbreds are inbred, at least to some degree, and it's been known for at least the last 20 or so years that there are certain families in the breed which are notorious for producing horses which can only race a few times before they break down catastrophically and die, the way Eight Belles did, and the way Ruffian did over 30 years ago . Both Eight Belles and Ruffian, and incidentally, Barbaro as well, came from a line which descended from Northern Dancer, and through him back to a famous horse named Nearco. This horse was unique in that he had a stout body, and very refined legs and bone structure- and so do every one of his descendants. Without Nearco, there would never have been an Eight Belles, a Ruffian, a Secretariat, a Barbaro, a Seattle Slew or an AP Indy, nor would there have been virtually any of the other really famous horses which have been seen in the last 40 or so years. Eight Belles had many crosses to Nearco in her ancestry- probably TOO MANY.  Why ?? Because the gene pool in the breed is SHRINKING, folks- it's not getting any bigger, and the bloodlines are becoming more and more concentrated. The incidence of preventable, hereditary defects is also on the rise among TB's- something which no one wants to admit, but which is nevertheless true. The only way to solve this problem is going to be to introduce some new bloodlines and genes into the breed- and perhaps do some outcrossing as well. That might have the effect of making these horses stronger and better able to stand up to racing- which would be a great thing to see.

I don't pretend that any of what I have mentioned here will happen anytime soon. It takes time for people to grasp what these horses are telling us with their injuries and deaths at such young ages. I do believe that change will eventually happen, however.

Answer 7

keeneland came up with the polytrack to try to better help our horses from breaking down.  it will take time to see if this is one of the solutions. less horses have broke down on polytrack, but if a horse is going to break down it doesnt matter what kind of track he is on.  dr beebee of lexington, ky has invented ocd which is given to the mare while she is in foal that helps to develop their bones better.  it has only been on the market for a short time and some who have used it are having good results  maybe that could be the answer than trying to find questioning the kind of tracks.

Answer 8

I've seen fatal breakdowns on turf.  There was a nasty one on openning day at Del Mar last year in one of the feature races.  There are even incidents that occur on polytrack, just ask Corey Nakatani who broke his collarbone when the horse he was working out at Santa Anita collapsed last winter.  I don't know what the answer is.  Turf is not it, though.

Answer 9

Accidents happen on turf as often as dirt, so no.  Leave the races as they are.

Answer 10

I also believe that breeding has a lot to do with the types of horses that are racing.  Breeders are breeding to get faster horses.  The bones of the horses are getting lighter and smaller making them easier to break.  If the breeding business is also looked along with the other issues mentioned, the condition of the track whether turf or dirt isn't going to matter.

Answer 11

Seen the race and it was  tragic how Eight Bells came to grief, very sad.

I understand your argument about not racing horses on the (all weather) as we call it in the UK maybe they should try a different fibre sand possibly ? the fibre sands (i know their are different types) seems to be getting harder and harder which in turn will obviously start to have an effect on the horses,the harder it is it apparently makes a horse run faster but it looks as though it's putting more pressure on the horse' legs.

Only just today a horse named Ivy Creek broke down (broken leg) and that was on the tuft at Ascot on the flat, so basically it can happen at anytime on any surface which is sad but true.

I have a bet every week and I know Horses are bred to race and by all accounts love it but all i wish for (apart from winning that is) that the horses all come back safe and sound.

Good topic.

Answer 12

good question ,

but i have to really side with jj007 whom raises a good point what about our all weather courses ? if the americans should run on turf then shoudnt we close are AW courses down ?

it will never happen but i would like to think somebody could invent safe sand i dont want to see any horse get hurt let alone put down

as i say its an intresting question.

Answer 13

Breaking down will happen on turf and on dirt period

    I have seen both

Keep the derby as 3 yr olds

I would like to see you change that ?

No way will that ever happen in my life time or your's

Answer 14

I'm reading some of the other comments and I am in disagreement with couple of the answers... and I am in aggreement with a couple of them

First of all I know tracks... and Grass Turf is safer than Dirt...

1) Tracks are not %100 sand... so dirt is not softer than turf. I've walked on dirt tracks. A little rain and some wind and it's like a parking lot... Dirt tracks are especially less safe around a turn where the depth of loose to hard dirt changes inside to outside.

Your statement is incorrect {krissy}

2)Turf horses do not breakdown as much as dirt horses do. The injury stats of Europian turf horses are different than North American Dirt horses...

Yes they still breakdown but not like the U.S. dirt horses...

1.5 fatal accidents for every 1,000 starts U.S. Dirt

0.065 fatal accidents for every 1,000 starts Europe Turf

University of Pennsylvania’s New Bolton Center

and  Animal Health Trust are the sources.

You are incorrect {hockey_gal9}

Breeding is one problem.

A horse with desirable bloodlines that showed promise early in its career and has broken down will be bred...

Just like a speedy horse that has NOT broken down will be bred...

Your introducing horses with durablilty problems into the blood line.

So you are correct {reiningangel}

Another problem is same day pain medication it is used in U.S.... Just Ban it! I heard Rany Moss state this on ESPN.

I aggree... Sore horses that run lead to missteps and missteps lead to breakdowns. Good horses who run on pain meds thier whole carreer get bred.

Breeding horses who get sore = Barbaro and Eight Belles type tragedies.

You are correct {Randy Moss of ESPN}  

Even Big Brown has cracked hoofs that are glued to help hold them together. Heaven forbid it, but he may be the next  one to breakdown. He still has to run Saturday and then he gets only 3 weeks till the mile and a half Belmont.

Thats a young 3 year old horse running 3 races in 5 weeks carrying 125lbs (1 1/4Miles) (1 3/16M) and (1 1/2M) on the dirt.      

It's not good most horses can't do it...

but {Krissy} you are right about not racing 2 and 3 year olds that will help leaps and bounds by letting them develope It's really bad to do to the horses.

You are Correct {krissy}

So will any of the changes above ever happen...

NO

Plus you won't find the support you need to change to all turf racing...

Race tracks owners won't go for it. Turf courses can not handle as many races and rain outs would also kill alot of the races that are scheduled to run.

Less races means less money... and money is what track owners care about the most not the well being of a horse...  

You are right {geoff w}

Horse breeders will not support all turf racing either

A turf horse runs differently than a dirt horse...

Just like a distance horse runs differently than a sprinter.

So all of the studs who run on dirt will become worthless.

It would bankrupt alot of breeders.

Making 4 years old  the minimum age will never happen...

It costs alot of money to keep those things alive and the sooner they can run, the sooner they can break even on what it cost to keep them going...

Horse owners would go broke on the 4 year old min.

Banning the pain meds will never be done either... Even though most countries don't allow them and do quite well without them... The U.S. horses will get sore and the size of the fields will be much smaller. Larger number of horses per race means more money to be wagered.

Gamblers like bigger fields becuase they lead to bigger pay outs at the window.

In all ... Traditional horsemen will never make the Kentucky Derby a turf race for 4 year olds.