Watchtower teaching, Colossians 1:15 and the use of "prototokos" in Psalm 89:27(LXX)..? ?

Question

The Watchtower argue that the Greek term "prototokos" (Eng - "firstborn") applied to Jesus in Colossians 1:15, is to be understood in the sense of "first-created", thus denying His deity.

However, Psalm 89:27 (88:28, LXX) in the Septuagint, applies "prototokos" (also rendered "firstborn") to David, contextually indicating his PREEMINENCE, with which the following quote from Watchtower literature agrees,

"David, who was the youngest son of Jesse, was called by Jehovah the 'first-born', DUE TO JEHOVAH'S ELEVATION OF DAVID TO THE PREEMINENT POSITION IN GOD'S CHOSEN NATION and his making a covenant with David for a dynasty of kings(Psalm 89:27). In this position DAVID PROPHETICALLY REPRESENTED THE MESSIAH." Aid to Bible Understanding, Pg.584(caps for emphasis).

So, according to the Watchtower, does David's prophetic representation of Messiah as "prototokos" refer to being

FIRST-CREATED

or

PREEMINENT?

Your thoughts, please?

Thanks in advance for your time.

Answer 1

  The prophecy was referring to Jesus in it's entirety.

Answer 2

So, you challenge this based on the greek speaking Jews translating a Hebrew word to Greek?

++

Why don't you tell us what the Hebrew word was first and its meaning?

Sounds like a second handed arguement to me.

Why does Jehovah refer to “David my servant” as firstborn, when David was not a firstborn son?

In Psalm 89 Jehovah refers to “David my servant” and reviews the covenant for the kingdom that was made with him. In the midst of this is the statement: “I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth.” (Ps 89:20, 27) David was not a firstborn son. (1Ch 2:13-15) So it seems that Jehovah was referring prophetically to the one foreshadowed by David, God’s own “firstborn” Son in heaven upon whom He confers kingship more exalted than that of any human ruler.—Compare Eze 34:24, where Messiah is spoken of as “my servant David.”

Jesus Christ is shown to be “the firstborn of all creation” as well as “the firstborn from the dead”—not merely most distinguished in relation to those created or those resurrected but the first one actually created and the first raised from the dead to endless life. (Col 1:15, 18; Re 1:5; 3:14) On earth he was the firstborn child of Mary and was presented at the temple in accordance with Jehovah’s law. (Lu 2:7, 22, 23) The apostle Paul speaks of the followers of Jesus Christ who have been enrolled in the heavens as “the congregation of the firstborn,” the first ones accepted by God as sons on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and the first of Christ’s followers to be resurrected with no need to die again.—Heb 12:23.

Answer 3

Neither,  to say either one would be a corruption.

Here is the breakdown of prototokos:

"πρῶτος" = "prō'-tos

&

"τίκτω" = "tiktō"

_______

πρῶτος  -  prō'-tos

1) first in time or place

a) in any succession of things or persons

2) first in rank

a) influence, honour

b) chief

c) principal

3) first, at the first

&

τίκτω - tiktō

1) to bring forth, bear, produce (fruit from the seed)

a) of a woman giving birth

b) of the earth bringing forth its fruits

c) metaphor. to bear, bring forth.

_______

Remember the word "LOGOS" in John 1:1?

"Prototokos" is used to clarify LOGOS.

(so is "stoicheion" - http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexic...

"Beginning principle by which all thing came into being".

"All was brought forth in time by THE PRINCIPLE".

"The WORD of God".

Genesis 1:2

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

This is the first mention of the divine LOGOS, the Spirit of God, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

But try to get the modern version of gnostics and arians to understand this and wrap their mind around it?

___

___

Psalms 89:27 is a prophetic writing:

Was any other human brought into existance through a young woman, a virgin by God Almighty?

No, only Jesus was born into human form and literally Fathered by the Father.

Isaiah 7:14 / Luke 1:35

Jesus our Messiah was born of virgin Mary

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

&

Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Jesus is/was God with us/God among us.

Answer 4

Trinitarians who focus on Psalm 89 do their cause a disservice, because most of Christendom happily acknowledges that the “David” referred to there is the Greater David, Jesus Christ (rather than the literal son of Jesse).

.. .. (Psalm 89:20,22,23,25-28,36,37) [Jehovah says] I have found David my servant... No enemy will make exactions upon him, Neither will any son of unrighteousness afflict him. And from before him I crushed his adversaries to pieces, And to those intensely hating him I kept dealing out blows. ...And on the sea I have put his hand And on the rivers his right hand. ...Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth. To time indefinite I shall preserve my loving-kindness toward him, And my covenant will be faithful to him. ...And his throne as the sun in front of me. As the moon it will be firmly established for time indefinite

.. .. (Isaiah 9:6-7) For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, ...Prince of Peace. To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom

Even if a Bible reader pretends that the 89th Psalm has no connection to Jesus Christ, it seems rather obvious that NOTHING in that passage implies that its “David” is without beginning, or that its “David” springs mysteriously from nowhere! Instead, the “David” character there is plainly subordinate to Jehovah God, and Jehovah there plainly gives legal rights of covenant and inheritance to that “David”.

Plainly, a firstborn is (by definition):

1. Born

2. Designated first, especially for legal purposes of inheritance from an ancestor figure

For example, Ephraim was given literal rights when he became hereditary "first"; such rights were normally granted to the chronological firstborn. The full context (including Genesis) makes it beyond obvious that "firstborn" was not used as some honorary title, but as a literal word with literal rights in a concept similar to adoption.

.. ..(Gen 48:13,14,17-19) Joseph now took the two of them [sons of Joseph, grandsons of Jacob/Israel], Ephraim...to Israel’s left, and Manasseh...to Israel’s right, and brought them close to him. 14 However, Israel put out his right hand and placed it on Ephraim’s head, although he was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh’s head. He purposely laid his hands so, since Manasseh was the [chronological] firstborn. ...17 When Joseph saw that his father kept his right hand placed on Ephraim’s head, it was displeasing to him, and he tried to take hold of his father’s hand to remove it from Ephraim’s head to Manasseh’s head. 18 Hence Joseph said to his father: “Not so, my father, because this is the [chronological] firstborn. Put your right hand on his head.” 19 But his father kept refusing and said: “I know it, my son, I know it. He too will become a people and he too will become great. But, just the same, his younger brother will

become greater than he will...

The matter is understood even more plainly when one examines the relationship between and inheritance from Elijah to Elisha. While Elisha was Elijah's attendant for more than a decade, Elisha was not his literal offspring. In fact, Elijah had no literal offspring. Who should inherit what Elijah possessed? While recognizing that Elijah might bequeath to whomever he wished, Elisha politely requested that he be given the double portion that might be expected of a parent's hereditary firstborn.

.. ..(2 Kings 2:5,7-9) Then the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho approached Elisha and said to him: “Do you really know that today Jehovah is taking your master [Elijah]?” ...And there were fifty men of the sons of the prophets that went and kept standing in view at a distance [perhaps in expectation of some promise or inheritance from Elijah the chief prophet]... Elijah took his official garment and wrapped it up... Elijah himself said to Elisha: “Ask what I should do for you before I am taken from you.” To this Elisha said: “Please, that two parts...may come to me.”

.. ..(Deut 21:17) [A man fathering sons by more than one wife] should recognize as the firstborn [his first fruitful wife]’s son by giving him two parts in everything he is found to have, because that one is the beginning of his generative power. The right of the firstborn’s position belongs to him.

Elisha was not interested in some honorary title; Elisha was interested in the literal benefits associated with the literal position of firstborn.

Both Elijah and Ephraim received literal benefits from being designated as literal firstborn, even if neither was the chronological firstborn of his benefactor. Of course, it would be silly to argue that Ephraim and Elisha were never born, or that their "siblings" were never born, and that would seem to be the conclusion the questioner intends t

Answer 5

The teachings of The Watch Tower Society(cult) are not of The Church(The True Christian Faith)... seek God's leading and study His Word and Will for yourself... DO NOT use the JW so-called bible.

Answer 6

The proper interpretation of the Greek word, prototokos, is 'preeminent.'  The other interpretation comes from someone with a hidden theological agenda.

Answer 7

Rick G already explained why David was called prototokos (firstborn).

Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15?

There is no problem with what Anna said..that "For by him were all things created"

Simply because if we will look at Proverbs 8:30 (which many agree speaks of Jesus) is beside God/Jehovah as "master craftsman"

But if we will look at Proverbs 8:22 (which speaks of Jesus) it tells "The Lord CREATED me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of long ago" (NRSV)

Edit -

Jesus have have pre-existence, Genesis 1:26 clearly shows God was not alone during creation ("Let  us make...").  I don't know if that is what you are asking.

Revelation 22:16 is prophetic.  Right from the OT the messiah and the appointed king is foretold that he will come from David's line.

Regarding Proverbs 8, it is wisdom who is speaking.  If we will read 1 Corinthians 1:24 Jesus appears to be God's wisdom.  Actually, before I became a JW, this what I already believe with this verse.  I hope you will also not mind if I will say "Please examine the scriptures prayerfully."

Regarding Anna's querry...

JWs do not basically believe that God does not have wisdom.  Of course he always has, that is why the "wisdom" possessed/created (NRSV) in Prov 8:22 is not literally wisdom.  Because if we will view it as wisdom per se, it would appear God's existence is separate from having wisdom, that he have to create it or possess it for himself during his existence.  It is inherent to him.  Thus the wisdom possessed/created by God is Jesus, (1 Cor 1:24)

Edit -

What I mean prophetic at Rev 22:16 is Jesus being "offspring of david."  Of course he did not literally originated from David, he existed before the world was (John 17:5).  In the OT prophets said that the promised messiah will come from David, thus offspring of david.  That is what i meant to be prophetic.

Regarding Jesus being God's wisdom, as I have said..if we will take the word wisdom per se in proverbs 8, it will appear God created wisdom (according to you: not Jesus) for himself..his literal wisdom is inherent to Him throughout his existence, and need not be created at one period of time of his existence.  

Wisdom spoken in Prov 8 shows that he served as God's master craftsman, who else is there whom God is speaking to during creation (Gen 1:26) or in saying "Let US make man..." (all caps for emphasis only)

Answer 8

Ps89: 27 And I will make him my first-born, higher than the kings of the earth. (LXX)

Context, again I see you ignoring it.

David is place as 'firstborn' of the kings of the earth.

Was David an earthly King?

Was David of the earth?

Yes to both questions.

Which "kings of the earth" was being spoken about?  All kings?

No

All kings from the line of Judah. See vs28-37

" and my covenant shall be firm with him. 29 And I will establish his seed for ever and ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30 If his children should forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; 31 if they should profane my ordinances, and not keep my commandments; 32 I will visit their transgressions with a rod, and their sins with scourges. 33 But my mercy I will not utterly remove from him, nor wrong my truth. 34 Neither will I by any means profane my covenant; and I will not make void the things that proceed out of my lips. 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness, that I will not lie to David. 36 His see shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me; 37 and as the moon that is established for ever, and as the faithful witness in heaven."

David was the firstborn king of the line of Judah, and all the others including Jesus stemmed from that line.

Thus the context agrees with the understanding of Firstborn as used in the entire bible.

Just as Jesus is "of creation", David is of the earth and of the kings.

Col 1:17 has to be in harmony with the firstborn of all creation, that is the context.

Col 1:18 also shows that 'firstborn' has to do with order of resurrection to heaven.

Jesus was  re-born, produced or brought back to life by God and resurrected to heaven.  (Those who are resurrected are also said to be part of the re-creation)

Thus all others who go to heaven are after Jesus.

Again showing that firstborn has to do with being 'first' and being 'born' or 'made'

All [other] things are reconciled to God, because Jesus was already reconciled to God.

.

Answer 9

Watchtower or not, firstborn in this verse means preeminent.  :o)

We also know this because:

v18 says:

...that in all things he might have the preeminence.

EDIT... also when you read:

...the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created...

It's obvious from the context that he is the CREATOR and not the creature... unless of course you have a NWT that adds the word [other] which of course is not in the manuscripts.....

Answer 10

Interestingly, the same Greek word used in Luke 2:7 when Jesus became "firstborn" of Mary was the same Greek word used for Col 1:15. Why do you think it's like that? Also, Acts 13:33 used the Greek word which can be translated MADE (begotten) to describe Jesus as SON. Also as Lord, Jesus was MADE. Acts 2.

Jesus was indeed preeminent, no question about that, but Jesus was also MADE, therefore produced or created.