What are your rights during a ramp check if you are flying in a part 141 aircraft?

Question

I know the rules if you are part 91 and if you are part 121 but as for 141 I am a little unsure.

Do you have to have your log book?

Do you have to allow the inspector entry into your aircraft?

Do you have to show the inspector the A.R.O.W. documents?

Answer 1

Part 141 is the section that designates criteria for a dedicated flight school with an approved curriculum. It is the difference between a flight school that has desiged and had approved all the materials, courses, etc... for a student to achieve specific goals (ratings/licenses)

Part 61/91  training is ol Cooter out at Cutnshoot airport that has an ol cherokee and is an instructor and will teach you how to fly.

Ramp check is a Ramp check regardless of operation. They are there to keep things square and you are there to enjoy your privileges... or do your job. They do NOT have the right to interfere with you. I TOTALLY disagree that you cave in to them and fawn all over making them happy.

A  GOOD Fed knows the score.. He knows more about you, your ship, your company/route/cargo  than you would ever think, and he is not out there by accident. He knows, if you are running late, not to even bother you. If he has grounds, he should and MUST take the responsibility, and at that point you are relieved of the responsibility for the delay. (Think it won't get your fired being late on a cutoff? try it sometime...)  

Just remember.... what you plant you will harvest.

I have seen Feds come blowing up and all impressed that everyone was going to shake and quiver only to have a Captain tell them.... sure... I will pull all the papers if you want to take the delay. I will stop loading now, and call my office and get you everything you want. You see... as PIC.. I am responsible for the loading of this aircraft, and if I am answering your questions, I can not manage that and my job as well.  

They know your sked... and if they are really out doing their job, they are not going to bang you on quick turn, they know where you live. This by no means you should be arrogant about it... or you will make a LIFE LONG lasting impression. I had a Fed I told NO, come back to me 20+ years later on a route check...  he was bent.... but I was right.

Remember   ALWAYS BE PROFESSIONAL

Answer 2

Some great answers here.

Always remember the FAA is in charge of enforcing Aviation Regulations, no matter what type of operator you are.

Part 91, 121,135,141, or whatever the case may be are all subject to the same ramp inspections.

Some may differ from others due to record keeping,(manifest, weight/balance requirements, etc.)

Unless you are a student pilot on a solo. You do not have to keep your logbook available.

As far as the aircraft documents. If they ask, let them see it.

People will tell you that you can tell them you do not have time.

Or you "have a meeting" to attend.

I would strongly urge you to not do this.

Once you have picked a bone with the FAA they will proceed to building the entire skeleton.  Good luck!

Jonathan S

ATP-LR-JET,HS-125,G-V

CFI/AGI

Answer 3

You are not an air carrier, so the rules are the same as for all 91 operations.  

Answer 4

Do you have to have your log book?  No, but if any questions arise you must be able to prove currency within a reasonable time frame...usually a photocopy of your last logbook page is sufficient.

Do you have to allow the inspector entry into your aircraft?  If he/she requests it, yes.  You are not operating as a business and therefore cannot claim that the inspector's presence is costing you money.  If the inspector wants to get into your airplane, you should probably allow it, unless you have a valid reason to refuse them entry.

Do you have to show the inspector the A.R.O.W. documents?  Again, if he/she requests to see them, yes.  Along with your aircraft's maintenance manuals, propeller and engine logbook, and any other document the inspector requests.  Basically, you are obligated to supply anything the inspector wants to see (within reason) unless you have a safety-related reason not to.  i.e.  If the inspector wants to ride along but it puts you out of c.g, you may refuse them

Now, all that said, most FAA inspectors tend to be on the diplomatic side.  If they ramp you, they simply want to make sure you have your license, medical, and appropriate aircraft documents on board and are current for the operation you are conducting.  They may inspect your IFR charts to ensure they are current.  They may ask you to prove your c.g. calculations are done (Most 141 schools require a c.g. and TOLD card to be filled out in its entirety prior to dispatch, so its generally not an issue).  Most inspectors will not delay a flight more than a few moments unless genuine safety concerns are raised.

Answer 5

No such thing as a part 141 aircraft.  

Part 141 is for a school.

the aircraft is most likely flown under part 91, so it is the same.  

Answer 6

Ramp checks are really no big deal.  They're the same if you're part 91, 121, 135, whatever.  They usually ask for your license and medical and that's it, maybe AROW.  I've lost count of how many I've had.  

Don't keep your logbook with you.  Don't worry, you're not going to get some rogue FAA inspector violating you if you don't have it.  You're logbook only becomes a factor if you're involved in an incident or accident.

Be professional and courteous, but don't simply roll over and do whatever the FAA person wants...they aren't always right.

Answer 7

part 141 refers to a flight training operation you operate the plane under part 91rules  and yes you have to submit to a "ramp check"

If asked, you have to provide  your pilots certificate & ID , medical,

and "AROW" documents.

No you do not have to allow the inspector to board (recommend you don't)

You only HAVE  to provide your log book if you are a student pilot (flying solo) If they really want to see it, make an appointment to come into the FSDO to present it.(gives you time to review it to insure it is up to date)

Answer 8

All good answers.  You have the same rights a police officer reads you off the Miranda card:  the rigth to remain SILENT.

You have to show (note show, not surrender) your certificates and AROW.  Anything else they can make an appointment to see.

In 30 years of flying, I've probably been ramped 50+ times (granted mostly at airshows I was participating in).  But I've also had a Fed on my jumpseat who told me that because the address on my medical and my license didn't match -- I had to get a new license.  I explained I had complied with Part 61 and sent the certified letters.  He said he was going to violate me anyway.  I told him to go ahead.  When that didn't strike the right cord of fear, he wanted to know why?  I told him because I want to haul him in front of an Administrative Law Judge and prove he was an idiot -- then I threw him off my airplane.

I've also had Feds on the jumpseat when the corner gets really square and there's nothing in the book to cover it.  Once it was all over and we were down with everybody and everything normal; all he said was "nice job, Captain".  Then he got up and left.  Perfect.

Answer 9

You must show your pilot license, your medical, the required on-board documents. (AROW)

Your pilot log doesn't have to be with you, so you don't have to show it. Same with the aircraft maintenance logbooks. As far as allowing the inspector into your aircraft, let's just say it would be unwise to refuse them entry if they ask. (and if you have things up with your airplane that will cause them consternation, you shouldn't have it operating anyway.)

It's good to remember. If you're dicey on anything or they just scare you,

1 ) you can always say that you're "not intending to fly the aircraft," - you may come up with whatever excuse. Most of the potential violations involve "intent to fly." -- now if that's clearly BS, I wouldn't use it.

2) Keep your mouth shut. It's not a check ride, and they can't give you a pop quiz.

3) Keep basic information such as when the Pitot-static check is due, handy, so if they ask about these things you can hand them a list of due-dates or completed dates.