Whats wrong with?

Question

My question is simple. Why all of a sudden if you listen to the MMA crowd are training methods that have been used for many years suddenly obsolete or ineffective? Training methods that were used to teach a style back when quite honestly losing a fight could mean no longer breathing. I am not talking about the modern sport McDojo training, I am talking about training methods that follow close to if not the same as the way it used to be taught, before the prevelance of McDojo's and 1st degree Black belts opening schools to make money. Why are these methods no longer good according to the MMA crowd?

Answer 1

To be honest, there's a lot of arrogance and snobbery towards traditional martial arts (TMA) in the MMA fraternity. Some of this is justified: mma started out as style versus style, it was the perfect way of "stress testing" your art in a legal, sanctioned manner. In the early days, guys without any ground skills were quickly taken down and defeated. Then the kickboxers learned to wrestle and the core disciplines of MMA were founded.

I think the typical MMA fan's approach to martial arts is a very pragmatic one: if it can't help you in the ring or cage, it's of no use. However, quite often an art or technique will get overlooked by MMA fans, simply because it falls outside the now "traditional" MMA disciplines of boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ and wrestling.

Answer 2

I will answer Legion's question: Legion, it is because A) the MMA crowd is EXTREMELY arrogant, and for the most part, the MMA enthusiasts who answer here put their arrogance AND ignorance on display every time they touch a keyboard; and B) people like you continue to answer questions without offering a counterpoint to your argument.

Now, back to the show: Katana, we live in a "gotta have it now" society. everything seems to be bigger, better, faster acting, "new and improved", etc. Communication is nearly instantaneous. College degree programs are "accelerated". Automobiles have speedometers that register WELL over 100 mph,even though the speed limit in most areas in no higher than 70. Exercise programs promise faster results. Instant meals abound on grocery store shelves. Heck, even STD's have medications which promise to cure your ills in record time so you can get back to your life, instead if having to wait (gasp!) a whole 7 days before you can resume the the irresponsible behavior that got you the STD in the first place. And this is not a new trend, either. History is rife with examples of "the next big thing", some of which are still in use today (albeit most likely in a "new and improved" form), and some of which have fallen by the wayside (can anyone say "Delorean"??). Martial arts is no different. Even traditional martial arts have undergone countless evolutions to improve techniques with information garnished from new research in scientific principles and ever evolving situations. I will use Tae Kown Do as a perfect example. The ITF held it's annual International Instructors Course this spring. With centuries, even millenia, of history and refinement, one might think that there wasn't much to change. Not so: stances were adjusted, transition movements were picked apart, and the famous "sine wave/knee spring" underwent more work and explanation based on the latest study of body physics. All in an effort to "improve" an already proven art form.

MMA is the latest iteration in the "bigger better faster" trend of making what was good, "better". Some people have the ability to understand this is another step in our ever-changing world; others are similar to a teenager who thinks that everything old is no longer any good, and thinks he or she knows best because Mom and Dad can't POSSIBLY relate to the way things are now. What they forget is that EXPERIENCE is the best teacher, and many of them learn hard lessons on the way to true understanding of life's trials and tribulations. And you can't tell them anything, either; it appears that, based on the scientific formula of the Inverse Parent/Teenager Intelligence Quotient, as children age and gain more "life experience", their IQ's and  reasoning capabilities grow exponentially, which unfortunately has the adverse effect of reducing a parent's intelligence by a factor of three which each gain in teenager abilities. And I know this from experience: with three teenagers in the house, I am currently nearly the stupidest personon the planet. My only saving grace is that there is also the Blowback Intellegence Recovery Theory, which shows that there is a breakpoint somewhere between the ages of 25-35, at which time parents recover most, if not all, of there previous intellectual capabilities. So there is hope for me yet.

Seems like a whole lot of blathering on to simply say this: MMA practitioners and enthusiasts can be likened to teenagers about to embark on the journey of "life on their own"; most of them will eventually learn that while "new and improved" may be good, "old, proven, and established" has merit, and in many cases is more sustainable.

Answer 3

It seems anything that takes time effort and dedication these days is looked down on. People want to be instant  legends. Don't confuse me with facts just give me instant success. More and more of my students come in and have their cup overflowing. When you tell them that to learn this art may take several years they run down the street to the MMA school where the learn how to take a beating.

Yea Katana is venting and so am I. MMA schools popping up like mushrooms. The new meaner Mcdojo only with a bad attitude. Grind and pound who cares if you are punchy by the time your 35. As long as the promoters make money. Thanks for the opportunity to vent. There I've said it you can all post your opposition and call me an angry old man.

Answer 4

Well first and foremost, a whole h**l of a lot more is known now. Sports science is leaps and bounds from what it was even 50 to a hundred years ago.

Second off, there is equipment now, equipment that helps minimize injury and works you more efficiently. While I think some training methods of the old school are good, especially with maintaining them culturally.

I think that thinking they are better the current methods is a bit stubborn. IF we followed such thinking we would be applying leeches and trying to balance out humours. Fortunately for us, the medical community isn't as stubborn as the Martial Arts community.

Modern day athletes are stronger, faster, more agile, than those three or four generations ago. Mainly because new training methods are being developed constantly and we know more now, and learn more now.

It is not to say the old ways are bad, it is just to say there are better and more efficient ways now.

For example stretching. If I took the stretching done even 20 years ago (and as I was instructed by my old teachers) some of which included bouncing stretches and then compared them to say modern day PNF Stretching. Not only would there be less incidents of stretching related injury or pain, but the person doing modern day PNF stretching would be more flexible in a shorter amount of time.

It isn't that the old methods didn't work, it is just we know more now and there are methods that are more efficient.

All training regimes need to evolve as knowledge grows, or as better things come out and are available.

If I took two guys, one hitting primarily makiwara, and the other hitting a bag. In twenty years time, the one hitting the bag will have a stronger punch, less hand injuries and should be relatively arthritis free.

If I took two people both being same body type, and similar genetics.. h**l let's say they are twins, and had one doing the conditioning that is "old school" per say. Then have another that is a modern training. I can promise you the one training in modern methods would be more explosive,faster and stronger, and will be more efficient cardio wise (better blood pressure, quicker recovery time, and able to do strenuous exercise for longer) and will be so in a shorter amount of time, because these evolutions are improvements. People now know the difference between fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers, and how to build them. People know more about endurance training and the difference between anaerobic and aerobic exercise and how to train for each.

Again that is not to say the old training methods don't work, because yes a person doing the conditioning will be stronger, faster, and in better shape that what he was, or what someone who doesn't train is. It is just to say there are improvements and training has evolved.

And good Martial Arts not only evolve in training methods but also techniques.

While I do feel culturally and to preserve some of the history and appreciate it, some time should be spent on some of the older training methods, definately so they can continue being passed on as they are a part of the art itself. But I think that all arts should be evolving as better techniques are out there, as well as better training methods.

In MMA with very balanced fighters being a little stronger, or being able to work at a higher tempo, etc. Every little edge you can get, and most modern day MMA fighters are constantly seeking out the newest and best training methods (as well as coming up with some specifically for MMA) to try to gain every edge. Hence the reason why MMAists (wanna bes don't really know why, they just randomly slam TMAs) are such large proponents of it.

At least that is my take on the matter.

(edit) for Katana:

Will doing 10 more knuckle pushups be the difference in surviving a self defense situations? Obviously no, conditioning helps you be better at the art, and as a fighter as a whole, they are methods that help you become more comfortable at your art, and help body control. A fat out of shape guy with good skills can defends himself just as well. That isn't really an argument for or against.

No, Traditional Art doesn't mean they never update. But your question was "why do some people in the MMA crowd thing training methods used for years are obsolote or ineffective", while I disagree with anyone thinking they are ineffective (at times ineffecient), I do agree with things becoming obsolete.As new knowledge or innovations make things better. Meaning who will become functionally stronger first, a guy who does 100 knuckle push ups a day, or the guy doing superset weight routines, with pyramids, and then explosive circuit routines.

The guy who does 100 knuckle pushups a day, will definately get stronger (so it isn't ineffective). But not as strong as the guy doing an Olympic Style lift circuit.

Again, you question was directly related to old school conditioning, and why these methods are no longer considered good. Not about traditional arts in general. I think adaptation is necessary for all things to survive, any good art does this. They pick up techniques from other arts, or from elsewhere they find is effective. Many "Traditional" arts do this. But there are some that do not, or even some instructors I should say who do not. Who feel that an art is perfect within itself, or perfect upon foundation and that it should be as close to it as possible. I feel that is flawed thinking.

Answer 5

If you dont include the Mcdojo knuckle heads on the traditional martial art side, can we not include the kimbo slice knuckle heads on the mma side? Both sides have thier idiot loudmouth knuckleheads. I'm sure all the reasonable, intelligent, true mma fans out there respect traditional martial arts, just as most of the traditional martial artists respect true mma. I think the problem is that thier are a higher percentage of knuckleheads on the mma side right now, so we are being poorly represented. Personally I have plenty of respect for the traditional, my dads a 3rd degree TKD

Answer 6

Despite being a TMA practitioner I have to go with mofojudo on his answer.

I just wish most MMA people had the same kind of intelligence. They rarely do and so I understand katana's feelings.

Answer 7

Katana, as a person who started off doing Okinawan Kenpo and wrestling at 8 years of age, I know exactly what you are talking about.  I did kenpo until I was 18 and wrestled throughout college and continue to do so (25 years old).  I have been doing bjj for the past 3 years and wish I had time to still take kenpo.  Unfortunately, with work and all, its not really possible.  I stopped doing kenpo when I left home for college because I knew that wrestling was going to be my life for those next 4 years.  Even though I always concentrated on wrestling more then anything else, since thats what got me into college, I always loved kenpo.  What many people dont realize is that the tma's are just as useful as any of the modern tenements of mma.  Often people forget that it is the practioner that makes the style effective, not so much the style itself.  If they were to watch high level karate tournaments, they would see what I'm talking about.  Nowadays, people think because they take a bjj class twice a week and think they know how to strike, that they are far beyond traditional martial artists.  Obviously, these are the people who have no idea what they are talking about.  3 of my former college teammates fight mma now and I have trained with them many times since I graduated.  While none of them have ever studied a tma, they watch all martial arts.  The reason being is that everything has something to offer, everything has effective techniques that can be used inside a ring or cage.  Eye gouging, groin attacks, and throat attacks are not allowed in sport fighting, but I too do not understand how people do not see the merit in those techniques.  Its a basic misunderstanding.  Most tma's were designed for self defense against attackers in real life situations, which is why eye, throat and groin strikes are used.  Tma's often teach techniques that will stop an attack so you can difuse the situation.  These styles have lasted so long because they ARE effective.  Ignorance is the only thing that holds the majority of mma fans from appreciating those arts.  Its this simple; everytime I watch mma with friends who never trained in combat sport, they equate strength and power to good wrestling, not understanding or appreciating what quality wrestling actually is and how chess like wrestling is.  The same goes for tma's.  Casual fans see fighters take a boxing or kickboxing stance and assume its because the tma's dont work, not taking the time to understand how technical the tma's are and that techniques from them are responsible for the formations of kickboxing.  I understand your frustration, but dont take it personally, its just misunderstanding and unappreciative ignorance.

Answer 8

Many people try to claim that MMA conditioning and training is superior.  In MMA, you can take many hits and still live.  One slice of a Katana, one thrust with a spear-can end your life.  The Samurai and other warriors who studied martial arts did so knowing that the next battle might be their last.  Their conditioning was not just physical, it was mental and often spiritual.  People nowadays cannot fully understand this.  The days of swords in the battlefield are over, but that does not mean they should, nor any other traditional art for that matter, should be put down by some arrogant showoff in MMA.  These styles were about life and death-plain and simple.  They were not about making money or having fun.  A fraction of a second, a mistimed step or the slightest failure in your spirit or focus could be your last in battle.  I train in Kenjutsu and try to get as close as I can to this type of mentality.

Answer 9

They are just as good to me as they were then the REAL ones that is.

Sure I agree before McDojo's came around a Black Belt was a real Black Belt.  so I follow you and I think that they are still effective today.

Answer 10

KATANA here is something written about 200 years ago

  Nowadays people are shallow and their resolution is not in earnest.They dislike the strenuous and love the easy from the time they are young.When they see something vaguely clever they want to learn it right away but if taught in the manner of the old ways think it not worth learning.

Even with methods like these students become bored and many quit TALKING about principals takes the high seat and the men of old are considered inadequate mastery becomes watered down and students only make efforts in things that might have them climb to "new heights"

ISSAI CHOZANSHI THE DEMONS SERMON ON THE MARTIAL ARTS

Nothings changed much has it?Training methods have changed plyometrics being a good example for strength speed and reaction time ..Contact sparring two man drills based on kata a deeper understanding of kata which 90% of dojo dont teach or understand.

I am afraid you are flogging a dead horse my friend it's not going to get up and run .It has always been so and will always be so .Let them whine and engage in useless misinformed opinion about which they know absolutely nothing.

Answer 11

i LOVE mma. But i am still very respectful of those who train and condition themselves using traditional methods.

However, the traditional arts that i have been involved with, well.. only one really (okinawan goju ryu karate) it wasnt very good at all. So, my guess is that, particular mma people have gone to one or two classes of a traditional class of a poorly skilled instructor, and automatically judged ALL traditional methods on that skill.

The fact of the matter is that, back then, the arts were used in war, for self defence, to defend oneself and loved ones. It used to work, Another thought of mine is that, through each generation passing it on to the next, a piece has been left out, and piece after piece, a lot of arts have lost the effectiveness that they used to contain.

Answer 12

I have never studied an okinawan or korean martial art which are the ones that seem to attract the most criticism, so I do not speak from a position of great knowledge. I have cross trained and I am an MMA fight fan. Kinda like the peolpe you are talking about.

On TMA some of the techniques they train for are of no relevence today, such as an 8 ft high jumping side kick, which I know some TKD schools teach. The point of this technique, which requires a lot of  training and leg strength which was required for a black belt test(friend was training), was for the situation that your opponent was on horseback. Simmilarly some of the stances used limit mobility and body mechanics but were developed for their situation, fighting on uneven unsteady ground such as rice fields. These stances are still taught and are not conducive to defending against the techniques used in MMA. The horse stance looks especially stupid to an MMA fighter. Some of the teaching methods were developed to instruct large groups of soldiers, 500 at a time and aren't as tailored as modern training. Kata is one of the first thing many schools in my area teach, and are really pedantic about, but without the understanding of the moves and what they represent it takes many years to become proficient. These things hurt the credibility of TMA in the eyes of MMA folk, so even the things from TMA that are beneficial are viewed with mocking.

Edit reply

Well i am not going to be attacked on a shale beach or in a paddy field. I can't even remember the last time I stood on loose ground. So I'm going to have to go with yes.

Answer 13

OK here we are again. It is obvious that Katana is a bit upset. I understand how he feels. He like myself has spent many years doing something that works just fine. Personally I don't care if someone does mma or what ever.  What I do care about is respect. There is this attitude that the new ways are better.  Perhaps some may be better, but that is not to say that they all are.  

As for new training methods, I refuse to use or allow a heavy bag in my dojo.  For styles that punch like boxing does it is great. For traditional martial arts it is one of the worst training devices ever. It teaches the wrong method for delivering power to the target. The old methods are superior for teaching the correct way for the TMA's.

Peter123.....  I don't know you and have nothing against you. All I can say to you is your comment about Goju-Ryu is incorrect.  I'm not saying that your assessment of your experiences with it are wrong.  What I am saying is one of two things happened to you.

1) you had a bad instructor

2) you did not rrain long enough to get the big picture

I'm sorry that you feel that way, because as katana said the training can be hard.  BTW I don't do Goju but know many that do.

michale c  ..... You may be right in saying that katana is always has something to say about something.  However he like many of us TMA students are simply tired of those that continually take pot shots at what we do.

Enough said!

Answer 14

How come you always got something to B*tch about Katana , and Its always aimed at the oh so Ignorant mma crowd.

Okay allot of You wax on wax off martial artisits. Always look down on us and call us barbaric , meat heads , show offs ect. But you don't see me b*tching about that every other question I ask. There are some arrogant MMA b******s out there I'll give you that , but theres nothing worse then some bruce Leeroy who goes out of his way to act more "enlightened" than you.