Who thinks this is a good reason to be critical of conventional medicine?

Question

I recently finished reading this;

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB120934207044648511.html?mod=2_1566_topbox

and I think a lot of specific parts in it (especially the second half) highlight why people are so sick with the modern medical system.

"M.D. Anderson viewed Mrs. Kelly as uninsured and told her she could get an appointment only if she brought a certified check for $45,000......Mr. Kelly arranged to borrow the money from his father's trust, which was in probate proceedings.....But the hospital demanded an additional $60,000 on the spot. It told her the $45,000 had paid for the lab tests, and it needed the additional cash as a down payment for her actual treatment."

The saddest thing in my eyes is that allopaths go after alternative medicine for price gouging (esp cancer) patients, despite the fact I continually see the alternative methods get significantly better results for 1/10th-1/100th of the cost of conventional treatments.

Anyhow, I'd like your opinions on this!

Answer 1

The problem is not with conventional medicine itself (meaning the treatments, they're far superior when you're actually sick to the alternative quackery I read here).  The problem is with bogus malpractice lawsuits, rising costs of providing health care, and insurance companies with high rates and crappy plans.  If you choose to critique modern (not conventional, it's called MODERN) medicine based on the awful system of the United States, then your argument will fall flat on its face.  The quality of medical treatments is not an issue that depends on the system that allocates them, or the competition/financial gain atmosphere of US health care.  

What I will agree with is the fact that the design of the US system makes me skeptical as to why some medications are prescribed.  Whenever a doctor suggests prescribing me medication, we discuss the diagnosis, the prognosis, the side-effects (there are side-effects from any treatment that WORKS), and the benefits.  I also take into consideration how long the drug has been on the market.  Phase IV clinical testing is done by prescribing drugs to people, and it's this phase that identifies long term side-effects.  Also, I'm very skeptical on being prescribed drugs that must be taken for long periods of time.   AGAIN,  THIS SAYS NOTHING ABOUT THE EFFICACY OF A DRUG.  IT ONLY INDICATES MY SUSPICION OF THE SYSTEM THAT DISPENSES THEM.

Answer 2

Good question,

I do think a lot of the time Allopaths slag of Alternative medicine is because they want to protect their markets...

....Yet they complain they are so busy all the time?

I'd like to see all cancer treatments, including allopathic independantly tested on a level playing field (Not necessarily using the reductionist medical model) and the results published.

I'm sure allopathy has a lot to offer but i also think someone else should be allowed to have a go where the results are less favourable.

You never know they may actually be able to do something better which Allopaths could use in their practice.

Answer 3

Re Skepdoc:

Don't the people on yahoo answers who take the time to write out detailed treatment protocols for people asking for help with a condition invalidate the claim "I've also yet to hear of an altmed practitioner offering their dubious services for free."

Case in point, I had Candida for about a year and I spent a while trying to cure it.  I searched it on here and read a detailed post Alex F wrote out explaining what to do and tried it.  Techinically he didn't cure me himself since I had to take the time to order the food grade peroxide online and remember to drink it for a week, but otherwise by writing that response he did effectively "volunteer his services for free" to help someone, and he's far from a unique example here.  I just listed him because the person you're accusing is an obviously invalidating example for your argument.

One of the problems with medical school is that it's so prohibitively expensive that when people graduate they are massively in debt and have to charge enormous amounts to treat patients and the system gradually grinds away the aspirations of helping people many individuals enter the medical field with.

Since alternative medicine doesn't have a captive industry on the educational process or a torturous and grueling education, they tend to not lose the spark of wanting to help others.  Hence, my experience has been alternative medicine practitioners have a much better attitude when it comes to wanting to help people.

I have been to classes and guest lectures taught by (accedited) ND's and MD's.  The former often are happy to hang around and give free consultations to people after class about their health, while "s***w you, you're not my patient" is the only thing I've ever heard from an MD.

As far as alternative treatments working better than conventional, the crux of your argument really boils down to:

"Show me a single high quality study."

The definition of a high quality study at the end of the day is actually completely subjective, and a mask you can hide behind to ridicule or ignore any result or conclusion you don't like (if you want to get technical, a perfect study is actually impossible to create except in very small artificial systems for say a physics experiment...which is now also shown to be influenced by assorted confounding variables arising from human thought).  

The primary differences between conventional and alternative cancer studies is that the conventional studies are dramatically more well funded, and not much else.

Conventional treatments are prohibitively expensive, often fail or leave the patient predisposed to remission (ie since they kill the immune system at the same time) and result in a dramatically reduced quality of life.  There has been a war on cancer for decades which has had ridiculous amounts of money spent on it and hasn't shown any actual improvements towards treating the condition.

Most of the available data on chemo/radiation therapy (once you take into account the effects following treatment for the next 5 years) show it to be equal in effect or worse than placebo.  It's a dirty secret the medical industry won't talk about.

I've seen plenty studies done which prove alternative therapies work while the mantra "there is no evidence any of this garbage work" is continually repeated by experts.

There's a movie called dying to have known which has a great example where western experts explain all the reasons why Gerson therapy could never work and no data exists, then a Japanese hospital is visited which has been using it for years with very meticulous data to back up the efficacy.

Lastly, one of the biggest problems with the medical system is that it's set up to be so biased towards the prohibitively expensive medical treatments (while outlawing the effective cheap ones) that it's become nearly unfordable for many segments of the population.  The problem isn't that so many people are uninsured, it's that it costs so much to begin with (often inferior care in the US is significantly more expensive than anywhere else in the world).

The critique leveled at alternative medicine (once the debunkers have to concede the treatments are harmless unlike their own) is that they are a waste of money and unethically price gouge consumers.  Yet, the systemic occurances in the medical system regularly extort patients for a completely different level of money.  You tell me someone who's ever spent $100,000 on an accupuncturist or chiropractor over the course of years, but in conventional medicine it's quite possible to do it in a week.

The entire dynamic our esteemed conventional medical system engages in is sick.

To paraphrase part of the posted article:

Hey lady, you have a life threatening conditioning and are going to die unless you give us most of your finances.

Oh, you cashed in your inheritance?  Sorry, we just threw that away on blood tests; you're not getting treatment unless we can get more than twice what we originally asked for.  Remember you have to pay us or die.

Oh you missed a payment?  Alright we'll hold you captive at the bed and dangle the medicine in front of you till you either die or find a way to scrounge up more money.

Sorry!  We blatantly overcharged you a lot of the expenses accrued in your hospital stay since we're all about making a profit.

(and possibly 5 years later)

Sorry!  All the junk we gave you didn't work and you had a remission.  If you give us all your savings we might be able to cure you but you're terminal and most likely will die.  You still should try it, afterall we can probably extend your life by a few months at least.

Skep doc, you really should consider the full effect of the pro establishment views you argue.  It's not just a question of being able to push your beliefs on other people, it perpetuates a system which allows huge amounts of human suffering.  To quote a common allopathic line "It's not very ethical."

Answer 4

I'm not willing to condemn all doctors/hospitals but in general the "system" rivals politics for being a steaming pile of you know what. I'm not big on conspiracy theories but I do believe the medicos intentionally downplay, even discredit, alternative modalities as a result of greed and ego.

Answer 5

I am already critical of it and i did not have to see the article.

If this woman had gone to a really good naturopath there is no way she would be going through this emotionally, mentally or financially.

I agree with the poster who stated that the whole system is screwed up.

Answer 6

"The saddest thing in my eyes is that allopaths go after alternative medicine for price gouging (esp cancer) patients, despite the fact I continually see the alternative methods get significantly better results for 1/10th-1/100th of the cost of conventional treatments."

not true. there are few alternative treatments that actually do anything for serious problems.

as far as your story though, i beleive it though it is probably an extreme example. healthcare is expensive, period. lots of healthcare providers are financially strained because most insurance companies pay horribly for reimbursement because they negotiate contract rates that are much lower than the sticker price that should be paid, and then you have illegal immigrants and uninsured people who dont have insurance and inevitably get sick, then cant pay their bills. so hospitals have to raise the price on uninsured people to stay financially viable. i dont know how bad it is in hospital but it has gotten kinda bad in pharmacy. youll get a medicare part D plan that pays the pharmacy a dollar or two (ive seen as low as 20-30 cents) over the cost of the drug to dispense a prescription (which isnt nearly enough to cover stafffing- maybe even the credit card transaction fee in the 30 cent cases) so when someone walks in without insurance they might charge them $10-15 over the cost of the pills to make some money since there is no contract rate and they can charge what they want. its unfair and unfortunate but its business, they have to do it to survive and alternative practitioners would do it too if they were in the same boat.

Zambiti- i think your post is directed at me, yeah youre fine now paying cash for the occasional cold, but everyone dies and most people get chronic disease at some point. and when that happens, youre screwed. herbs and organic food wont do much if youre in a car accident or your kid gets a freak cancer. unless you are extremely rich not having insurance for an extended period of time ends up being a losing wager for quite a few people. and i havent seen too many insurance companies that are just like "oh, its ok we'll dole out more money." most would audit the h**l out of you and refuse to pay as much of the claim as they can get away with

Answer 7

This isn't a critique of conventional medicine at all.  You are totally misrepresenting it as a strawman argumemen.

It is an example with what is wrong with the American medical system where 40 million people don't have health insurance, where greed, money  and profit rule who gets what treatment.  This simply doesn't happen in Canada where everyone has equal access to medical treatments no matter what their financial circumstances.  It sounds like an out-take from Michael Moores' terrific critique of the US health system, "Sicko"

contrary to your unsupported statement/belief, here is not a single alternative treatment that gets "significantly better results".   The plural of anecdote is not data. Show me a single high quality study that shows ANY altmed cancer treatment is superior to standard care.

.  Just one.  I'm waiting.......still waiting....

Financial abuse is one of the many problems with the unregulated altmed industry, but I "go after" them because of the lack of evidence of efficacy.

Answer 8

haha! (referring to allopaths)

hypocrisy to the max!

thanks for the article ^_^

also, @ skepdoc: i am a reiki practitioner in training and i give treatments for free.

Answer 9

I think it is a wonderfull reason to be extremely critical of conventional medicine Alex !!  That is such a heartbreakingly sad story ...........  but then again, being a healer at heart i would like to live in world where treatment for healing and health and vitality weren't a privledge affforded only to the upper class and wealthy amongst us ............ unrealistic you may say, nonetheless, how i feel.......... how many amongst us would be able to come up with that kind of money on the spot !! ...............  What a disgracefull state of affairs ......;0(

CHEERS

♥

Answer 10

I think western medicine should fall back and regroup. The FDA allows too many drugs to be dispensed without extensive testing.

I gave up an MD degree because the further in I got, the more I wanted out.

For the last 35 years I have been utilizing homeopathic, acupuncture, flower essences, chinese medicine, and Ayurvedic medicine for common ills. I would use western medicine for surgery only and then with about 10 second opinions.

All this is aside from the rest of our health care industry - insurance and the rest.

Be well.

Answer 11

I think you already know how I feel about this... I've said it before, I'll say it again... Alternative medicine seeks to give the body what it needs to cure itself while conventional medicine seeks to alleviate symptoms while fleecing our pocketbooks. Great illustration of the real fleecing of America, Alex.

Answer 12

Yes this is so typical of the man made drug companies and Main stream so called health care in general.

   If you are not critical of main stream gold digging, and think MDs are so wounderfull.  Why in heaven's name are you in the Alternative medicine category in the first place ??

  I learned many years ago about the non curing gold digging health care system.  How many deaths have been linked to malpractice ?

   God's medicine is by far superior to main stream money grabbing.  No they don't cure everything.  But they cure afflictions that MDs dont even know a cure for.

   Broken bones is about the only reason for main stream quackery.  I speak 100% truth.

Answer 13

Been exceedingly busy lately, but had to pop in to add my .02.  

It isn't allopathy that causes the example you give, it is pure greed run a-muck in a system that tells the world that the only way to get health care is to have a disconnected 3rd party payer who will stand for gouging and corruption as NO direct payer would!  I've actually attempted to help people who are being gouged get excessive charges removed from bills going through the insurance dispute process.  The end result is 90% of the time the insurance company saying "Don't worry, you don't have to pay anything."  Like **** they don't!! Everyone pays in higher health insurance premiums.  

No, this is not a problem with there still being people who have no insurance coverage, as one poster pointed.  Our family DOES NOT and WILL NOT have health insurance coverage as a matter of conscience.  We NEVER run into problems like this.  Upon arrival at any allopathic care center - which has happened 2 times in 10 years - we just state "We self pay."  They say, "OK" and we just get the bills in the mail later.  We then pay with cash what we can, and put the rest on time, which they are required to do.  We don't get strong armed into paying excessive amounts, or forced to be referred to collection.  One hospital employee attempted to strong arm me, and I flat out told her, "Ok, then you get $50 a month until it is paid.  And you can't refer to collection because I made an offer to pay."  She then backed down and recorded the payment.  

A lot has to do with the honesty and the fortitude of the individuals involved.  By golly, I have great fortitude and can't stand dishonesty (which is part of the reason I avoid allopathy, but that is on medical terms not greed).  

To be honest, those who state continually that the health care crisis is caused by those who are uninsured, they are just spouting political rhetoric designed to make the greedy even more money, while robbing from the poor and sick.  It is health insurance that has caused the ever increasing inability to pay.

When covered by health insurance, we paid MORE for services.  We don't get discounts because we pay with cash, other than an occasional discount because we use cash, but what we get is NOT charged for things we didn't use.  We see reasonable and customary prices.  We've had it both ways, and without insurance is by far cheaper.  

Great reading: http://www.marketmed.org/history.asp

As for reasons to avoid allopathy, there are plenty of scientific ones.  And, yes, I've seen many alternative treatments that are much more effective.  The problem is, the unscientific (liberal arts degree) allopaths want us to believe that proof something works is in a double blind study in a controlled circumstance, conducted by a company that has everything to gain by the outcome, or a college which is being funded by said company.  

Time for a reality check folks.  

Zambiti out - and back to the busyness of a healthy, alternative life.