Why are people so anti-adoption? Why are some adopteesso bitter?

Question

would an abortion been better?

Answer 1

of course abortion is better

Answer 2

When I was a child, I watched the news a lot.  There would be stories of couples who could not have children and were going through extreme fertilization procedures to try and have one.  In other stories there would be teen pregnancies and teen mothers who were not ready to be mothers.

It made sense to me that the teen mothers should be made aware of the other group that were trying so hard to have a baby.

When I was faced with an unpanned pregnancy that I was not ready for, I remembered this group of people that were trying so hard to have babies and selected one of them to be the parents of my son.  Could I have kept him for myself?  Of course, we would have survived, but our quality of life would have been  wanting.  Since I had been abused as a child and had not worked through that yet, there is a high likelihood that I myself would have been abusive, and I recognized that.  

If he tracks me down some day and has problems with being adopted, we can talk about it.  He's not going to have to look very hard for me, the adoptive family knows how to find me.

Just me talking.....

Answer 3

I don't come here much anymore because of some of the venomous things people say about adoption. Everyone is entitled to their view, but I find it sad that some people harbor so much anger.

People's personal experiences shape their view of the world.

There are people out there who had bad adoptive experiences just as they are who had decent ones. Then there are people who did not have a good life and blamed it on their adoption situation simply because being adopted makes it an easy scapegoat.

Personally, I didn't have anything close to a good life, but I am not anti-adoption. Yes, I acknowledge that there is some serious reform that needs to happen in the adoption industry because it is not perfect, and it should not be a money-making venture, or one where children are displaced from their cultures into families who do not honor that culture, etc. I have plenty of complaints. But I still support adoption in general, because I understand the core value of the process. Giving a child opportunities that it would not have had with the birth family. We can't cure all these birth family issues to facilitate them keeping their babies and ending the need for adoption, so we have to work with what we have at the moment and let these children be adopted into loving homes.

My 2 cents.

Answer 4

I believe very few people are actually anti-adoption.  Most people here want reform.  I agree.  With the way adoption is today i can even see how some people are anti-adoption.

For the love of God, adoptees are not bitter.  I don't even understand where this thinking is coming from.  

Would an abortion have been better? Are you serious?  Rude question.  Would it have been better if your mother aborted you?  Geez

Answer 5

Im an adoptee.

I was raised in a culture completely different from that of my birth, it didn't turn out the greatest for me but I wouldn't consider myself bitter.  Acutally Im very grateful for my life and the decisions that my birthparents made for my life.  They felt like they were doing the very best thing to ensure that my life was better than what they had to offer me.

Abortion is never the answer, thats just murder.  I wouldn't be here if my mother chose to abort me and I am very happy to be alive lol.

As for people who are "anti-adoption"  I have never come across anyone who is,  only people who thought they were stepping on my toes asking questions about why I didn't look like my family but once they realize im comfortable with it, they  ask more questions which is cool by me.

Answer 6

I asked a similar question when I first stumbled across this website.  Others can answer this far better than I can.  All I can say is it is complicated and you need to hang around a bit to understand the different perspectives.

I am an adoptee and I'm not angry or bitter.  Adoption is just a fact for me.  It is part of who I am and I can't change that.  There is no way of knowing what my life might be like had I not been adopted, chances are it might have been much worse.  I do not know my past,  I'd like to, but that doesn't  mean I'm in any way unhappy with the present. I am grateful for my life, my family, etc...For the life of me I cannot understand why some perceive this as a "bad" thing.  I'm not in denial, much to the contrary, I have come to an acceptance of what being adopted means to me and my family.

Others feel much differently.  They are very articulate at expressing their own views.  I have come to understand differing views better even if I don't agree.  I have learned a lot by hanging out here and the "Thumbs down" don't bother me any more.

So, just ask away, read people's answers and you will start to see the different patterns of views.

Answer 7

Abortion and adoption have everything to do with each other....

   .....they are both about loss!

   .....they are both choices made out of desperation!

   .....they are both choices where the woman bears the

          weight of her decision!

I have said it before and I will say it again. Neither are really choices made by woman. Woman are forced to make these decision because her partner (A MAN) has FAILED to live up to the responsibility to help care the life he has helped create.

Woman are not "empowered" to make the decision to abort her child and then left to "wonder" for the rest of her life.

Woman are not always comforted in the fact that their child is being raised by another couple while she is left "wondering".

Until we start to teach our young men responsibility for the lives they help create the woman and children will always be the ones to suffer.  How can we as woman and mothers  forget this???

Answer 8

I was adopted....I think abortion would be better.

...I don't like women who can open there legs an scream in delight and then  get pregnant and give any way there child like a problem solved...

Answer 9

I was adopted at six weeks old. Let me make this clear, unless you have experienced being "the kid that was adopted" then you have no clue. Yes, there are sucess stories out there where people have the wonderful parents, the wonderful home and all the love in the world...... and then there are the rest of us. You go through life looking at people and wondering could that be my mom or my dad. You never really feel any type of identiy. You never feel whole because you don't know who you really are. I am not whining, my life now is great. I love my children with all my heart but in my eyes they are the only two people in the world I am related to. I know that not all situations end up with unfortunate situations but more do than don't. I was sexually abuse by my brother who was my adoptive parents birth son when he was 18 and I was 5. My mother never believed me. If Roe vs. Wade had been in effect in 1968 then I think I would have wanted my biological mother to have made another choice. I was kept in my adoptive home to be a caregiver to my adoptive mother who was diagnoised with multiple sclerosis when I was 7 and my adoptive father died suddenly when I was 3 so don't give me any **** about how it could have been worse. I was bathing my mother and changing her dirty diapers by the time I was ten. When it was time for me to graduate my personal items were placed on the front porch of HER home because her free nursing labor was over. Ironically I went on to school to become a very successful nurse. Just don't judge us adopted children who say that another option might have been better for us until you walked in our shoes. YOU NEVER FEEL WHOLE!

Answer 10

Abortion and adoption have nothing to do with each other, and it's quite offensive when the two are compared.  I was abused as a child.  Would you ask ME if abortion had been better, because I'm unhappy with MY life circumstances that I had no choice in or control over?  Totally inappropriate and disrespectful.

Some adoptees are so bitter because they're told they ought to be grateful for having life (i.e. they weren't aborted) when no one else would be told the same thing (I'd be pretty friggin irritated if people said things like that to me simply because I'm unhappy with the life my parents chose for me before I had any say in the matter...wouldn't you?).  Often, adoptees are bitter because they were raised with strangers unnecessarily.  

I am not totally anti-adoption (obviously...I'm adopting), but I believe that adoption should be a social service for CHILDREN who NEED homes, not a way for people to buy an exotic baby, or become parents just because they want to.  What about the child's need to have his/her family, heritage, roots?  Children in foster care NEED new families.  Most other kids don't.  Instead of taking a child permanently from a teen mom who doesn't feel able to raise her child yet, why not make a guardianship agreement, help her out until she's on her feet, and then she can raise her own child?  That would be best for the child.  Instead of taking a child from Africa, why not sponsor his family so that he can stay with them?  Why is it necessary to rip him from his people, his culture, when all they need is a little help, some food and clothing?  You pay tens of thousands of dollars to adopt a child...how much of a difference could that money make to their family?  They sure wouldn't be giving up their children to people like Madonna!

I support adoption from foster care, because these are children whose families have HAD the chance to reunify, and other family members are given the chance to adopt first.  The parental rights have already been terminated, so there is no longer any chance that the parents are able to parent (yes, there is corruption in foster care as well; I'm just glad I live in an open records state where it's near impossible for them to hide anything from us).  I'm not going to be needlessly ripping apart a family for my own selfish desire to be a parent.  I will be providing a family for a child who NEEDS one, which is what adoption should be about.

Answer 11

im an "adoptee" or was for most my life. and you know what? i DONT believe in adoption. i wish that i never was adopted. i think that i would have been better off w.out it. when people put their kids of for adoption alot of people seem to not realize that not everyone out there is a perfect home for your children. they arent all good. out of the 2 homes i was almost adopted by and the 1 home i was adopted by there was only one nice true couple. but no i didnt get adopted by them. and out of my 14 foster homes in my childhood you know how many of them werent in it for the money adn actually bought me clothes and things i actually NEEDED? about 3 or 4 at the most. i just wish people would at least know what theyre putting their children through first.

Answer 12

RUN!!! I hear the footsteps. NEVER say bitter and NEVER ask bout abortion on here.  you will here from them all in no time.

some of us are cool wit our adoption. some not.

Answer 13

The institution of adoption has great intentions, such as trying to provide a loving family to every child, etc. But adoptees are traumatized by their removal from the birth mother. Think about how infants are born with an attachment to their mothers, who they've listened to speak for months and who they know before they are born. suddenly they're given to someone who sounds different, smells different, and doesn't have postpartum hormones seeping from their pores. Combine this with the brand new, overwhelming experience of life and it is a traumatic experience.

As adoptees grow, information about their basic identity is withheld from them. Everyone should have a right to their heritage, their family health history, and a relationship with other family members that want to know them. Even when the birth mother refuses contact, often siblings, grandparents, or uncles will want to know them. But the current closed adoption system does not allow them to contact anyone. They do not have a right to know their original identity, and this can be an emotional drain. Many adoptees describe feeling incomplete, or like there is a black hole somewhere inside them. All of these feelings along with other problems in life and the corruption of private adoption, makes for some bitterness. But I think all adoptees would agree that adoption and life are better than abortion.

Answer 14

Hey, if I were you, I'd be careful what you say to us...many of us adoptees are mysterious serial killers, and we are really good at searching for people, AND we're bitter on top of it, so you wouldn't want to p**s us off.  

We are bitter for so many reasons, it's just impossible to list them all at once.  We have to keep coming back to answer questions in order to list more reasons we're bitter and to feel sorry for ourselves all day long.  But if you would rather, we could arrange to have ourselves aborted now, so you wouldn't have to listen to our whining.  We are people-pleasers after all!

Answer 15

I'm pro-adoption, but I am picky about adoption. If I were to adopt, I want an AMERICAN baby, not a baby from another country. Now let me explain before I get flamed.

I have no problem with people adopting from other countries...but every year, thousands of children here in American are over-looked for a child from China or some other country on the other side of the world.

I don't believe this is fair. If you want a foreign child, I have no problem with it. But, as for my personal choice, I want to help someone in this country. (I don't care about the child's color/race/gender so much as I want to help children here in OUR country since everyone else is helping other countries.)

As for the adoptees...well, I hope you mean the children. They feel abandoned. They miss their mom or dad...or maybe they have been in an orphanage for years and been over-looked time and time again. Wouldn't you be bitter if either happened to you? I know I would be.

Answer 16

i am adopted and was adopted at 7months old.i would rather have the life i have than me being killed.

i would rather someone who cant look after a baby give it away to a loving home to people that cant have children or just want to adopted than to kill it

Answer 17

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;...

and that's just a start.  do a search on 'adoption and loss' and you'll understand better why many hold critical views of adoption in the US.

ps.  abortion and adoption are not related.  one is not wanting to be pregnant.  the other is not wanting to parent.

Answer 18

most people that expree these one way opinions are ignorant people that have never actually been in neither of these situttions, so i wonder, are they really valid opinions? ive never been in this situation, and although im expecting my first child now and am very happy, it doesnt change the fact not everyone feels the same way. shouldnt everyone have the right to decide? dont get me wrong, there should always be limits put forward, but maybe one woman cant or doesnt want to be a mother, but doesnt want an abortion for ethical reasons, so gives life for another maybe less fortunate family to reep the benefits of.

whilst another woman doesnt want a child at all and so has an abortion. we are all free to decide. its like suicide and euthenasia discussions.. why so many issues with this, when life is ours to choose what we want, yet no one ever goes to a muslin to say " your wrong for not excepting blood transfusions!"..

i found out that the man (my da as far as im concerned) was not actually my dad after 16 years. this didnt make me bitter.. it made me feel lucky that there are people out there willing to do a job where others refused. i didnt miss out on anything.. i gained a fantastic family, that dint just love me becouse im genetically related to them, but becouse unlike most people... they got to choose me...

Answer 19

MeerKat...first off I want to say thank you for asking the question “why are so many people are so anti - adoption.”  I am new here and have wondered they very same question but was afraid to ask.

I can certainly understand situations where people felt like they didn’t have a choice or some where along the way the adoption situation didn’t work out. Sometime adoption promises are broken so often we hear about the negative side and rarely do we hear about the positive side because the people involved in a positive adoption experiences are out enjoying their lives. We enjoy our lives and I believe in giving back and offering support…which is why I am on these boards.

Not all adoption situations are negative not all adoption situations go south, any time I try to share our positive Open Adoption journey to anyone considering adoption as an alternative I get pretty slammed.

Everyone should have a voice and everyone should have an opinion but more often than not the “anti-adoption” people lump everyone in a category of “awful people who adopt, they never keep promises blah blah blah”.

Jane and Joe public are no different than people who adopt some raise their children very successfully, some travel, some have wonderful relationships with extended family.

Sometime Joe and Jane public don’t make good choices and some hit their children or get divorced and some raise children who are angry and very messed up. My opinion is that angry and messed up kids are due to "parenting choices" not adopted or not adopted.

We adopted and we have never laid a hand on our daughter she has never been hit by us has never been hit with a belt, she has never been yelled or screamed at she has never been called names or gone with out a meal.

Everyday we hear the news we hear about biological parents who beat their biological children, some burn them, some even kill them rarely do you ever hear of an adoptive family doing that kind of harm to a child. We had a baby in our home several years ago we had a very open adoption with them before the 6 months was up they chose to parent. We had to love and let go even though we loved that baby we would never want to stand in the way of a family who wanted to parent. In the end…Miranda became a statistic she became a very abused child by her biological family and was nothing more than a pawn in a bad marriage. When she was 4, Social Services removed her from her biological parent’s home. They wanted to place her with us but she was such an emotional mess from all her abuse that we were not able to care for her (we tried) eventually she went to a family with a parent who is a psychologist.

Most adoptive families want children to be safe and healthy. Could it be because we truly have a desire to parent, could it be because we must go through physiological evaluations before we are allowed to adopt, could it be because we are honored to be parents?

We have a great relationship with our birth family it is so awesome they have thrown our daughter a birthday party, we exchange birthday and Christmas gifts stay over at each others homes they are an extension of our family. We are two families who love our daughter (we are not co-parenting), at the end of the day it is all about our daughter knowing who her birth family is, knowing that she is loved and feeling secure enough to ask adoption questions to either side of her family.

Granted not all families want to nurture an open adoption to our extent. However there are families who do keep promises, there are families who love their children unconditionally and there are families who have raised well adjusted children because they chose to be honest with their children about who they are and where have come from. Most important their children are healthy and happy because the parents had good parenting choices and instincts.

My heart aches every time I read “don’t give your child away you will regret it”. Not all birth moms regret their choices. My sister n law placed as a teenager she never regretted her choice she just wished she could know how her daughter was, she wanted a picture, a letter something to see how Diana was doing, 40 years ago they didn’t do that which is why I am such a big believer in open adoption. The great news…things have changed…Carla now knows Diana and spends lots of time with her and her grandsons.

Our daughter’s birth mom has never regretted her choice she has missed her and she would have loved to have been able to parent but her life circumstances during that time in her life did not allow it. Our birth mother wrote a letter to a young woman who was considering abortion she wrote these words and sent me a copy of the letter. This is an actual quote from Heather “I have the best of both worlds I am living my dream, getting the education I have always wanted and I have an awesome relationship with my daughter and her family. I am as involved as I want to be and can step away without ever feeling guilty. If I had chosen abortion the guilt of killing my baby would have eaten me alive, with adoption I know that my daughter is alive, I can play with her, I can call her and I can still follow my dreams. Truly... the best of both worlds.”

Adoption does not have to be negative, it can be positive and both parties can find peace in their decision of placing or adopting. As in all relationships it all boils down to honesty and trust. I can’t speak about anyone else’s adoption experience I can say that everyone I know that has been part of an adoption triad is happy, healthy and enjoying their relationships with their children and their children’s families.

How many biological parents who want to place their children in loving homes chose to parent because of the negative things they have read or heard. How many wish they could spend true quality time with their children but instead are working 70- 80 hours a week just to survive, how many gave up dreams and how many shuffle the what if deck. At the same token how many chose to parent and became successful in life. Life is what you make of it...adoption works for some, biological parenting works for some and sometimes parenting doesn't work at all regardless if you are a biological parent or an adoptive parent. It is how one is raised not necessarily whether or not they are adopted, for every negative biological parenting experience we can find a positive adoption experience. Would I lump everyone into one category? No... it all comes down to individual choices.

I am a stay at home mom, we take our daughter to New York every 3 or 4 months to see Broadway shows, she has a great relationship with her birth family including grandparents and cousins, we take our child to Disney 3 or 4 times a year, she travels everywhere we go she is in dance, gymnastics and soccer she has a horse, a huge family to love her unconditionally, she has been reading since age 4 and at age 5 began doing math problems, she eats home cooked meals almost everyday and she gets to enjoy being a kid she is kissed and told that she is loved hundreds of times a day and… she is adopted and loved by everyone who meets her…how in the world can that be a negative experience?

MeerKat…thanks for giving me a sounding board…I truly expect to get slammed for my comments for some people the truth hurts, for some they are uneducated about adoption and are guessing and pulling at straws some are assuming what adoption is. All in all it will be those people who will lash out at people like you and me and do everything they can to make this about them instead of the facts…adoption can be a wonderful experience…adoption can be healthy and adoption is a loving option…. would we adopt again? You bet...

Hugs,

Maria

Maggie, Jill, Cruz Girl, Sugar K, Carnie, Sassy…thanks for your positive input on such a sensitive subject.

Regardless of being adopted or not we all have our share of struggles in life. In the end it is how we choose to take those experiences and share them with others. I am so glad that all of you have chosen to share a part of your journey and I am so glad that you have chosen to speak up. We can all learn so much from you…

Answer 20

This question and many of the answers just go to show the anti-adoptee bias out there.  There's plenty of adoptee bashing here already thanks.

If an adoptee speaks their truth, are dissatisfied with the way infant adoption is practiced or dare to speak out against the antiquaited sealed adoption records laws that the USA hangs on to like old dinosaurs, we are labelled anti-adoption and bitter.  Nice.

How often do people ask YOU if you would rather have been aborted by your mother?  Adoptees are no more likely to have been aborted by their mothers than the rest of the population.

Way to go perpetuating the stigma against adopted persons.

Answer 21

I want adoption reform, because it should be about what is best for the child. Adoption should not be a money making business. Adoption should be about placing children in need in homes where they can grow up in a loving stable enviroment. Most on here want that a reform in adoption, not doing away with adoption altogether. There is a slight few who want adoption done away with.

Answer 22

I'm all for LEGAL adoption but, that is not the norm. reform is needed and the core values are good.  Problem is most aren't clean above the board adoptions. I can understand adoptees being resentful. They had no choice or say in the matter. What about the ones that found out there parents did want them. If genetics plays such a small part why are so many adoptees in reunion and/or searching? How would you feel to find out you were giving to people that sold you to other people. ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS. adoption can and is sometimes good but, when selling children becomes a $1.4 billion dollar industry I got a problem with it.

              My daughter was giving up without my knowledge or consent and now 20 months into her life i'm over $100,000 in debt from legal fees just trying to protect my childs rights and mine. If the adoption goes through or these people get joint custody because of forcing a bond on her how do you think she's going to feel or react later in life? There are good adoption and adoption agencies i'm sure but until they become the majority and major reform hits i am and will remain anti adoption. anything that treats our children like a commodity i will happily and adamantly oppose.

Answer 23

I think that sometimes women are made to feel like they don't have an option other than to place their babies for adoption, and they end up regretting the fact that they didn't keep their babies. So they end up being anti-adoption in general, because of their own experience.

Sometimes adoptees don't have a very good childhood, so they fantasize about what their lives might have been like if they hadn't been placed for adoption. But I think every kid out there wonders what their life might have been like with different parents, even in the best of circumstances!

While I find it hard to believe, I've actually seen people who were adopted post on YA that they wish their first moms had aborted them. Very sad that they think so little of their lives...

Answer 24

meerkat --

some are extremely angry about their adoptions . . . others, like me, would love to shout from teh rooftops that our lives were enriched due to adoption!  We'd love to shout that it's OKAY!  I am an adoptee and I am not angry, bitter, less than whole, damaged, feeling a loss NOR am I in denial.

some adoptees are so angry that they will jump on you for anything you say -- never mind trying to educate or explain their feelings, they're just going to go into attack mode.  

Good luck here on Yahoo!

Answer 25

I'm probably going to regret this....

But this: http://withoutatribe.blogspot.com/2008/0...

is one of the many reasons I am anti-adoption.

The corruption is so thick you can cut it. Bitter not much today. Pissed, h**l yeah.

oh and while you're at it, read the post on "be grateful you weren't aborted" http://withoutatribe.blogspot.com/2008/0...

Answer 26

As an adoptive mother, I am very obviously not anti adoption. Nor am I anti birth mother, but I am VERY Anti "telling an adoptee at least you weren't aborted".

Adoptees are the only class of citizens that this seems to be a regular and common statement. So, on top of an adoptee not having access to their original birth certificate,  any hereditary health info, or even their heritage in many instances, many people think they should be grateful they were not aborted.

Maybe after hearing this enough is part of what makes adoptees a little bitter. Wouldn't you be bitter after awhile?

Answer 27

There are some people that had negative adoption experiences.  There are some people who have legitimate gripes about the adoption process and are looking toward adoption reform.

I have no problems with this.

Here's what makes me go "hmm".  The people who are all for the rights, education and support of the expectant mother.... unless she chooses adoption of her own free will.  Rather than saying someone made an informed choice, the idea is she MUST have been coerced somewhere. If the expectant mother made a choice that the gang doesn't agree with, suddenly she became too pressured, or foolish, or uneducated to make her own choice.

It honestly sounds like some of the far left-field types that hijacked the women's rights movement.  They're all for empowering women, unless they have a different opinion. Because if a woman doesn't agree with them, they are either brainwashed, or browbeaten.  It simply couldn't be that a person came to a different conclusion!

There is an awfully broad definition of coersion here.  Some people have declared on this board that even bringing up the subject of adoption during a crisis pregnancy constitutes coersion.  Of course, those same people are singularly silent when a woman feels she is being coerced into an abortion.

Hang around awhile and you'll see the patterns.  

Me personally, I have no problem with adoption, so long as it is done legally, ethically and morally.  I don't care if it's foster adoption, domestic infant adoption or overseas adoption, each have potiential legal and moral pitfalls.  Expectant mothers CAN be coerced into placing for adoption (I just don't think it's ALWAYS coersion), foster children can be removed from their homes wrongly and overseas  children can be trafficked for adoption.  No route is free from the possibility, which is why the adoptive parent must ensure that this isn't happening to the children they would adopt.  

In addition, adoptive parents need to research and address the unique issues that adoptees face.  Adoption doesn't erase a previous life and the adoptive parents need to understand and accept this.

Answer 28

I would be pretty p***sed off if someone asked my kids if they "would rather have been aborted" or imply that "they should be grateful they were adopted and not aborted".  I'm not adopted and no one has ever raised that question to me, why should that even be asked of my kids.

Answer 29

Sts. PRESERVE US....ABORTION AND ADOPTION HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER.....

I have decided not to answer or post anymore on this board because every question I post gets deleted by the anti-adoption crew, and because I do not agree with the terminology accepted by the powers that think they be on this board, but I had to reply to this...I'm actually on to see if Gaia Rainn (sp) had anymore info on the little boy....I'm pulling for you GR.

Anyway...I had to respond to this....but I[m pretty much done.  I actually had a fellow adoptee tell me not to let the door hit my A@# on the way out....because I object to the term b*****d...and don't feel I need to be educated by people who want to embrace it.

People are anti-adoption because they have had bad experiences with it and there have been cases of corruption.

Frankly all questions like this do is stir everyone up...stop posting them PLEASE!

Good Luck GR if you read this!

PS I'm adopted and I never felt negative or bitter about it ...I never had negative feelings about adoption, or adoptees...until I came to this board.

I was blessed to be adopted by my parents and was never treated any different than the other siblings...in fact I have a "twin" 6 months younger than me (my mom was pregnant when they adopted me)...we were always raised as twins.....

I've finished grad school, married a wonderful man and have four lovely children.  We have a great life with many material blessings...I'd have NONE of this if I'd been left to the woman who gave birth to me and who only used my attempt to reunify with her as a chance to get money out of me.

Her children are all on and off welfare, I think one finished high school, one has had her children removed...she gave up another one in there somewhere.....

So I'm not bitter at all...I acknowledge not everyone had the fairytale, but some did.