Why do some people PRAISE Kata and other despise them?

Question

Or Forms or which ever you want to call them? Can those that despise them see NOTHING good in them and those that PRAISE them see nothing bad in them?

I am just curious.

Answer 1

A lot has to do with what side of the fence you come from.  Take MMA and a wrestler; his opinion of kata and the value he sees in it may be very little.  A martial artist that has a good instructor who just does not teach the moves for another testing requirement but actually relates those moves and some of the history, application and practacality of them back to his students tends to value kata more.  Take for instance a spear hand thrust.  It has little in the way of practical use in this day and age especially if you don't condition your hand, fingers, and wrist to absorb the impact when striking this way.  A hundered or so years ago though when people did and they wore armor and fought with swords such a technique had much more use.  Back to that wrestler now and MMA.  Footwork, postioning, and distance are very important in your ability to shoot for takedowns on your opponent.  Wrestlers practice this constantly much like martial artists do with kata.  For some takedowns footwork is a part of that takedown and it won't work without the proper footwork.  I know of very few sports where footwork and positioning are not important.  The fact that a wrestler may not see the parallels or is not able to relate to those parallels is part of all this I think.  At the same time in some schools where sparring, self-defense, and training are limited to just show-type karate and knowing a kata is the main means of determining if a student is promoted reinforces the attitude that kata is useless or time wasted.

Answer 2

A great question, and one that we could all line up on our respective sides arguing 'till we're blue in the face! Haha I love to debate too...

Well in my experience it is as you explained in your question. Those that despise them see nothing in them. Though on the same token there are those that swear by them and still see nothing in them.

When I was a much younger lad I was a bit of a fighter. Not because I went out looking for trouble, and so I would always ask why and so would my mother (bless her heart). Starting way back when I was seven years old, living on the AirForce base in Lubbock, TX. I got picked on by a gang of bullies who were all around ten years old and up. Our school had all ages as it was on base in the 80's. Well, my dad took Tai Chi for some years then and showed me how to make a fist, and told me to punch until I win and not to come home if I didn't. After the next few years, I wanted to learn TKD (because my friend was), and my dad insisted that I only learn Tai Chi. I thought this was a geazer art for old people, and I wanted to learn to FIGHT! Well, that was the beginning of realizing my misunderstanding of what MA was and the really cool secrets it has.

I've been told that people are probably jealous of my carefree attitude and constant happiness, and that's why they pick fights with me without provocation. So I have the real world fighting experience to coenside with my MA training.

Learning kata has actually made my fights shorter, and more damaging. I would as mentioned before me, learn the kata at the basic level. Study it and interpret it, with a minimum of three different types of attack for each movement. Once I was able to effectively interpret any kata called on the spot, I moved to Bunkai. This would be the newest kata or the one I had been focusing on that year. The Bunkai would be perfected so that I would not stop moving until it was over. Essentially a type of form sparring. We would also do "form sparring" and regular sparring every day on top of the rest. Once I reached San Kyu, I had to find the hidden movements and the hidden meanings in each kata. This we called being guided by the spirit of the kata.

I believe it to be that boxers, MT fighters,JJ, and MMA get their respective understanding from trial and error while practicing KATA (Practicing and armbar on another person is BUNKAI). We did the same thing. They would also shadow box, which is stand alone kata, as a kata is not a dance, but a fight against an invisible opponent. So it's just a different way of seeing the same thing I guess... a bit of a longwinded answer for such a short retort... sorry.

Answer 3

I suppose it depends a great deal on just what you're practicing martial arts for.

If you practice martial arts because you want to be able to win a pub fight (or for some other similar spurios reason) then endless repetition of katas or forms will be completely pointless to you.

If you practice martial arts as a sport and enter full or semi contact competitions either professionally or as an amateur, then again endless repetition of forms or katas is going to be useless to you.

If you practice martial arts as a means of keeping fit then endless repetition actually does you quite a bit of good, particularly in the Japanese styles where you gain significant strength in your legs from constantly performing the stances.

If you practice martial arts with the goal of achieving technical perfection (or as close as you can get) then endless repetition of katas or forms is the perfect means.

In all the martial art forms I've studied when we were taught katas we were shown the kata with not only the individual but with his attackers as well which clearly demonstrated the practical applications of each technique being used so for me kata was and is important although I can certainly understand why some people find it tiresome and pointless.

Answer 4

I am going to keep my answer brief. There are some great responses here and I agree with much that has been stated. Although Bruce Lee inspired me to lean martial arts, I don't agree with everything that he taught. I do find Katas very useful. I also find some move in some katas ridiculous. Especially when it goes against what I have been taught. I don't understand how some katas end with a head block or leg block. Personally I think the fight isn't over just because a strike was blocked. I do agree the katas work on muscle memory. It is even better when you do learn some of the hidden application within the kata. In addition to that you learn and practice several bunkai associated with the katas. My instructor even uses bunkai with no predetermine attacks. But again we also practice with attacks by several persons were I must defend and take down the attackers. I never know how they are going to attack i just know how many attackers. We have also have to defend against surprise attacks from behind or other angles. Those day are very interesting.

I have also seen many non-traditional kata especially with weapons there were nothing much in my opinion but flash no real life application. Like throwing you Bo in the air like a baton and catching it behind your back. It looks good. The crowd enjoys it. But what did you strike or block or how does this off balance your opponent? I think those are great when doing a demonstration, but not good for self defense.

Answer 5

Kata, Tul, Poomsae, forms, etc. have both good and bad points, depending on the point of view of the casual observer. From an outside standpoint, forms seem to be too rigid, too choreographed, and too slow to be of any use in a "do or die" situation. Casual observers will see techniques that seem to have NO application in a self defense situation, and the movements are extremely defined and technical (depending on the level of the practitioner). The uneducated, or sheep-like followers of purported martial arts "masters" (and yes, I am referring to the late, great, Bruce Lee - although an accomplished martial artist in his own right, and one I would not have liked to confront, still just a single voice), forms are pointless, a waste of time, because an actual fight will most likely NOT conform to the controlled, practiced movements seen in a form.

HOWEVER, this observation misses the point. Forms are a TOOL, used to teach a practitioner techniques and transitions BETWEEN techniques that DO have application in a "real world" situation. By practicing forms, we learn control of techniques, balance, proper execution, and the discipline required to achieve muscle memory.

You can liken forms to any other sport that employs training techniques that do not necessarily translate DIRECTLY to actual use. For example, football players do numerous footwork drills that seem excessive when practicing, but in a full speed game, the drills that have been repeated over and over and OVER again "take over" in situations that mimic what was practiced. A football player is NEVER going to have to run through tanglefoot ropes or lines of tires when streaking downfield for a touchdown. BUT, the emphasis of the drill, which teaches players to get their knees up and keep their balance when running somewhat awkwardly, allows them to have the ability to run through a pack of players grabbing at their legs, knees, ankles, etc., which lets them get THROUGH the mass of bodies and blow downfield for a touchdown.

It's all about practicing. Repetition lends itself to automatic movement in a particular situation.

Answer 6

Hi Wulf

I personally feel the reason why people despise kata isn't the kata itself but their understanding of it. Unfortunately this problem lies with the instructor and the way kata has been taught over the years by repetition and not by explanation or application.

In any field you will always have the practical and the theoretical. Most of us understand there is a need for desigining a building before you start to lay the bricks. Otherwise in the future the building may fall down due to poor foundation. Kata is the same.

Sparring, grappling, hitting the bag all teach things in their own right such as timing, distance, rythem, flow, actual contact etc but without any technique to work with you have nothing to play with?

Kata are not a dance nor are they a series of movements but they are individual techniques that need to be taken out and practiced then applied in ones own movement and not done in a prearranged format. Bunkai does not teach this. It only confuses the matter more by adding apponents that simply follow the form?

Which brings us back to the question of understanding. If instructors actually broke down the forms and taught the fighting application then kata would be accepted.

The founders knew this but it has become a case of Japanese wispers to the west and what is left is a rather messy substitute of what it should actually be.

You should never collect kata or spend most of your time hitting a bag down at the gym. Both are pointless without knowledge of what youre doing and why.

If you extract the principles from the kata and apply it to actual fighting then youre onto a winner!

We can all fight without form but we need it to advance forward. Otherwise were learning nothing. And what about development of ones character and training to be a better all rounded individual?

In all things perfect balance sits somewhere in the middle.

Theres some big hitters answering this one. I  personally wouldnt like to choose whose best!

There all good answers.

;-)

Best wishes

idai

Answer 7

I personally dislike them but i do think they help. As for your question, different people believe different things. Even if we don't understand it, they probably have a reason that is hard to explain to others. Things have always been this way and they always will be.

Answer 8

There is NOTHING bad about kata, unless you are learning some modified kata.

People change kata because they want to add there "own flavor" to it.

The problem is that kata was forged in the scholar's chambers and the battle field and if you are modifying them, you are losing the martial properties of the kata.

Those modified kata are the useless ones. The ones that look like they are a waste of time and effort.

The ones that are over 100 years old were formed when masters, who incidentally were also healers, used their knowledge of the healing sciences to create deadly techniques.

They tested their techniques and perfected them. They then cataloged them in a sequence that held the details of the dynamics and the mechanics involved for the application of these techniques.

These catalogs were taught to those who wanted to learn.

These catalogs are kata.

Those who despise them know nothing about true martial arts, even the arts they "study" or "studied". They should not despise something they know nothing about.

They never saw the value of kata... or rather, they never saw that kata IS your art, because they were not taught. Maybe their teacher did not know.

Nobody likes to hear that their teacher did not know their art completely or well enough to impart the proper teaching onto them. Nobody is willing to accept that this is a possibility, so they "despise" things as an excuse.

There is also the possibility that the teacher did not find the student worthy of the "deeper" teachings. Can you blame them for "despising"? I would be disgruntled!

If it weren't for kata, I would not know my art! and neither would you!

Answer 9

I have come to the conclusion that most dojo in the west should dispense with kata all together.

WHY?

90% OF INSTRUCTORS DONT HAVE A CLUE

MOST OF THE 5000 ASSOCIATIONS OUT THERE ARE HEADED BY SHODANS WHO PROMOTED THEMSELVES TO "MASTER" AND WERE THEMSELVES TAUGHT BY SHODANS (1ST DEGREE BLACK BELTS)

WESTERNERS DO NOT PUT IN THE TIME AND EFFORT TO MASTER ANY ART BEYOND A FEW KICKS AND PUNCHES TKD BEING A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THIS.

KATA FOR THESE PEOPLE IS A WASTE OF TIME.

THEY RESEARCH NOTHING THEREFORE UNDERSTAND NOTHING AND MASTER NOTHING.

Understand I am not putting anybody down just describing the situation as it is but its time we started testing the testers .A good question to start with is "can you show when a block is not a block and how to use it as A a stike B an unbalancing movement C a arm bar lock break or throw"?.If he can do that you have found a knowledgable instructor If we start doing that the mcdojos  may dissapear.

Answer 10

I cant stand Kata!!!!!!!! I was in Taekwondo and we had to do our patterns and memorize every single movement and make it perfect. The whole time i'm thinking, WHAT ARE ALL THESE USELESS MOVES!!! None would be practical for a fight.. Kata's are horrible to me, that';s why I quit taekwondo and joined MMA

Answer 11

This a question that everyone should answer for themselves after careful consideration of the facts surrounding forms.

Bruce Lee didn't like forms at all, yet every kung fu school I have been to uses them.

All the kick boxers I know say forms are a waste yet they still practiced them for years before stopping. So did the forms make them any better at kick boxing?

George Dillman's self defense is based entirely on forms "katas" and is most impressive but takes years of practice just to do well much less master.

Funakoshi taught school children forms for exercise but does that make all forms just a children's exercise?

Forms do teach body mechanics but don't basics also do that? Forms map out pressure point attacks but the same pressure points don't work on everyone.

Forms "katas" do have a lot to offer but maybe not for everyone. I personally see good and bad in forms practice but ONLY seeing "good" or "bad" is nothing more than FOOLISH PRIDE.

Answer 12

There are many differing views on the value of kata. Kata is regarded by some to be the very 'soul' of the martial arts. By others, it's regarded as a complete waste of time.

Kata is a record of the fighting systems that combined to form karate; the original 'syllabus' if you will. In Geoff Thompson's book 'The Pavement Arena' he states,

" It's not that the content of the karate syllabus is lacking, more that the syllabus is not fully utilised. A closer look at kata will divulge not only the manoeuvres we have all come to know and love, but also grappling movements, throws, hook and uppercut punches, eye gouges, grabs, knee attacks, ankle stamps, joint strikes, head-butting and even ground fighting. Have a look at your own dojo. How much of this information has been discovered, utilised and taught therein? When I had my own karate club all these techniques and more were covered. Why? Because they encompass every eventuality in all scenarios; a necessity if one is to be at all prepared for an attack."

I think that is a great paragraph that succinctly sums up the key issues relating to kata and modern karate. Many karateka ignore the lessons of kata and therefore inadvertently practise karate as a 'partial' art. Without an understanding of kata, karate is a grossly inadequate and incomplete system. As Geoff says, we need to fully utilise 'the syllabus' if karate is to be effective. And, as we've already discussed, for karate - and arts like it - kata is the syllabus!

On the other hand, modern day practitioners of the martial arts choose not to bother with kata, they often do so in the name of 'realism'. What they fail to realise is that by abandoning kata they have effectively abandoned the very syllabus of the original fighting system. Without kata, all that remains of karate is a 'shell' of the original art and modern day sporting techniques.

Answer 13

katas support an educational syllabus defined by the art in question. they serve only as a tool of moderating the degree of achievement within any given doctrine.

they form no part of real life. you do not block kicks with your forearm at waste level.

many people like them because many people enjoy being part of something larger than themselves, while others prefer to get to the point.

kata follows a history of subservience and if one wishes to climb the ladder of their art they must be god at it.

kind of like being good at changing the station on your cars radio, it wont help you be a better driver, but ensures you feel good about the driving you do.

so for me, kata is like being able to change a station. it wont help you drive in real life, but can add a certain pleasant element to your travels up the road of belt progression.

you dont need music while you drive to be a good driver.

you dont need kata to be a good fighter, but you do need it to be a good practitioner of whatever art you do that demands it.

Answer 14

If you want to be good at forms practice forms if you want to be good at hockey practice hockey, if you want to be good at fighting practice fighting.  Many people think being good at forms means your a good fighter....thats what starts the debate.  Thats why forms are a waste of time if your learning 'real fighting' but if your studying a martial then thats fine.  Many fighters practice 'jabbing' which helps fighting because a jab is an element of fighting....forms are not an element of fighting.  If you try to use a form in a fight you will lose.  Many traditional MA's will argue that they would only use element of there kata's in a fight but this is where their pride confuses them.  The worlds best kata performer would do horrible in a street fight against the world best streetfighter, but a streetfighter would get blown away in a kata comp.  Some MA's accept this but sadly some don't.

Answer 15

I myself dislikes katas because i've always felt them to be a waste of time in contemporary society. Granted I can see how they can teach control however, when you consider how likely it is that you are going to lost control in a fight the first thing that goes out the door is any form you may have learned...so it has it's good and it's bad

Answer 16

I started training in 1967. My first instructors would always say that there were hidden application in the kata, but would not explain. Now I know why. It was because although he knew there were hidden applications he had yet to learn what they were himself.  I earned my first black belt in 1975. At the time I knew 32 kata (not all form the same style). Truth be known I had no idea what was hidden in them. It was not until the 1980's that someone began to show me some of what kata has inside it. Now after 41 years, I only practice a few kata. Yet I know more about them and how to find the real applications. The kata are full of pressure point techniques. What I find even more useful to me are the many grappling techniques hidden in them. One move that is common in kata has a move where both fist are held together on the right hip. The top fist is facing palm down on top of the other fist which is palm up. Many kata do this just before executing a side kick to the opposite side. The fist at the hip has nothing to do with the kick but is a technique itself. It is a wrist lock that is easy to do. Once I learned what it could be really used for kata became something of great interest to me. Through the years I have found many applications, grappling, striking, kicking that were hidden to me for many years.  It is said that the old masters that were great fighters were also good kata practitioners. I believe that the statement is true. Someone said that it takes years to understand and that is true. However what is there is well worth the time to discover them to me.  Some believe that the kyusho and tuite are useless. Others think that they are the Holy Grail. Neither is totally correct. The applications do work if done correctly. However if not done exactly right they may not work.  In acupuncture it is known that about 30% of the public does not respond well to acupuncture. Likewise the Kyusho and Tuite techniques do not always work. That is why the basics were stressed first. The student could develop self-defense by diligent practice. Once his technique was perfected the Bunkai containing the Kyusho and Tuite were taught. At least that is how it is supposed to happen. For many generations now many martial arts have not passed on this knowledge. Because kata without the understanding is not much use for fighting, many have tried to re-invent the wheel so to speak by developing their own fighting methods. Often this is accomplished by cross training in other arts in order to have a method that is well rounded. So I do believe that kata are very valuable, but only to those that are patient enough to study them long enough to unlock them.  To those that don't they can still develop effective self-defense. They just do it from a different approach. Rather than argue about kata it is better to just train in what you believe in, but keep an open mind.  Many times I have held a strong belief about martial arts only to have something change my mind totally. That has happened many times in the last 41 years. I hope that I can keep an open mind and that I will continue to allow myself to change my beliefs if there is sufficient reason to do so.  No matter what your beliefs, I wish you the best in your training.

Edit: Funakoshi said that if you only knew one kata and understood all that was hidden inside it you would be a deadly fighter.  I firmly believe that.  While many martial artists are constantly looking for new techniques to learn, I am not. That is not to say that I'm not trying to improve. What I am doing is using fewer techniques and practicing fewer kata. My focus is on dissecting what I already have. By doing that I am understanding more about what I have.  Working out with other styles gives me the chance to see how they do things and ask why. Many times I find that they have a valid bunkai for a kata that involves applications that are effective yet different from the ones I know. Often it leeds to us sharing our bunkai.

Answer 17

I think the two biggest blows to kata have been Bruce Lee and the emergence of MMA and the UFC.

Bruce Lee didn't like kata, and consequently everyone that considers him a god and the best ,artial artist who ever lived doesn't like kata. My question is how can somebody who basicly studied a style that had forms for 4-5 years(Wing Chun), be truly qualified to judge whether they are efeftive or not, when that time period is barely enough to scratch the surface? The answer is he is not.

Most of the MMA people who look down on kata do so for the following reasons:

1) Most of the styles that are reperesented in the Octogon have no forms.

2) They trained styles with forms for a while, but not long enough to reallystart to grasp everything they contain.

3) they studied a long time, but under an instructor that was clueless as to the applications within the kata.

Most good "Traditional" martial arts practitioners have no interest in fighting in the ring. I feel this is one of the main reasons that you do not see more styles that emphisyze kata in the ring. Another reason is that people trainign for MMA want to be up to speed as quikly as possible, something that is not going to happen in astyle that is heavily dependent on kata, because it take years of training to develope them.

kata are good for self defense if:

1) they are trained for the techniques themselves, not for the dance.

2) you have an instructor that actually knows what is going on and can teach them.

3) You actually practise the techniques in the kata with aliveness.

Kata are the foundation of many styles, including Isshin-Ryu which I study.Yes without training them with aliveness they are a dance, but they condition your mind and body to react without thought when you are attacked. Just because people that put it down have never seen what true kata can do, or because Bruce Lee said so, are missing out, but that's there problem, not mine. When i was attacked with a knife, what came out was from kata, wansu to be exact, and I survived and left my attacker badly hurt, with a broken bone and a dislocation, so for me, kata definetly works. But then again, I have an excellent instructor. Also many people do not realize, at least in okinawin Karate, there are many grappling and submition moves in the kata's, but most people see on the surface block punch kick. Again i am glad I have an excellent instructor.

Edit for jw bulldog- Try imagining that right before that last block you have trapped an arm and the final block is actually popping the joint.