Why do they do that???

Question

Western riders always say to English riders "its not the bit, its how you train your horse"

Dont Western riders have horses with vices??

Dont your horses ever take off round the field or Get very excited and run into a horse that will kick it?

It seems to me that Western riders have all the viceless horses.

It is very important to be able to contorl your horse while out hunting or at a show but from my expirence and alot of other people's Western riders always critisize us for not using snaffle bits.

Im not having a go, i would just like to know because i dont know how you get vice free horses???

Answer 1

well, it's not really just western riders that say it. . . i've had trainers tell me about my hands/bits/aids. i know what it's like to have a horse run off with me *using a snaffle bit* but i also was taught ways to get the horse back undercontrol instead of changing bits. i cant say it's wrong to use harsher bits, like the gag bit, b/c any bit can be used and abused. . . i personally dont like the big western bits, b/c i know my hands arent quite enough to ride in one, so i dont use em as much if ever.  i think that if you like the bit, and it's good for the horse, then you shouldnt let it bother you if people would choose not to use that bit.

i like my kimberwicke bit that some consider harsh. . . but i was trained by 2 trainers to use it and how they considered it proper to use.  i'd never use a gag bit, but i'd also never tell you that it's wrong for you to use one if it works for you. (same with those curb/western bits)

Answer 2

they mean it when the rider say the horse is playing up because of the bit or the bit is too mild. So the western rider tells them that they should train their horse to respond to their aids and should not blame a bit because they didnt train the horse to accept the riders commands

its like the phrase - a bad workman should never blame his tools

Answer 3

No matter horn or no horn (western or english!!), Contrary to popular belief, a snaffle bit with a hard handed person or an inexperienced rider using the reins as their balance, is not the most gentle bit for a horse.  

A snaffle bit can pinch the corners of the horses mouth and the nutcracker effect of the joint can be painful to the palate, tongue and bars of the mouthif reins held improperly.   In essence, the horse will try to evade the bit so he can breathe and/or  release his tongue and swallow more comfortably.  And, a double twisted thin wire "snaffle" would not mean that a horse is so well trained either, just because it is a "snaffle".

It is my opinion that a mullen mouth or straight bar bit with no shanks would be the easiest on a horses mouth.  I would rather see a so called harsher bit with a horse being more responsive with a touch of the reins rather than a snaffle with a non responsive horse working against the bit.

JMHO

Answer 4

It is frustrating to wade through all of the opinions.  But I have ridden for 56 years and I learned long ago that bits are not brakes....and if you think they are, you'll never learn to communicate with your horse to the degree that is possible.

The only times I found myself in the fields without brakes were the times I was out there before I had developed into an actual horseman (woman).  Once I learned to use my body to command and coordinate with my horse's body, I finally found I truly had found the brakes.  Vice-free horses live with people who take the time to understand them....and even then, they are no more perfect than we are.

ADD....I also hope you can see it as constructive criticism..when I tell someone I think the best solution is to try the snaffle and train some more, it's what I truly believe, and not meant to criticize....it's just giving an opinion on what I think will help.

Bobae...I agree so so so much....when they can be out in the pasture and just be horses, it goes far to eliminate the vices, and they work for us so much more attentively when they aren't full of the frustrated energy that being in a stall creates.

ADD....hudson....any bit without shanks is a snaffle...it doesn't need to have a jointed mouthpiece to be a snaffle.

Answer 5

having a horse full of  energy is not a vice!!

but western horses do have vice it's just QH's (typicall western horse) they are soooo laid back! you can do anything and they don't care they are just soo laid back and easy going...now most english horses they are like who!? what!? when!? where!?!? everything EVERYTHING excites them and gets them going lol

thats not a bad thing... and also i've seen alot of english horses that were calmer then western and in the show you would never know it that well trained jumper was ten times as fast as that barrel racer, and no one could  even guess that the hunter was the calmer one

it depends on a horses mind, trust, and of course training!

personality wise? cold or hot blooded? excited easily? full of life? happy go lucky? laid back and anything goes?

well i ride my hunter in a snaffle and he's 99% perfect lol

and i think western trainers sometimes have better training techniques...like i don't know one western trainer that rides a horse before he knows the verbal "WHOA" command and stops...that is the horses brake... in english we use bits and devices as brakes not verble cue which i think make the horse pay attention better!

now this is NOT everyone some english horses know whoah and don't stop and some know it and do stop..it just seems the majority of riders in my area are like this...

english trainers, don't teach the basics AS well as western trainers

the western trainers will train train train until the basic is 100%

thats how it is in MY AREA i don't know about yours!! but thats what it's like for me

but if the only way to get your horse to stop is a harsher bit then i guess you have to use it

also i think the english breeds tend to be more...how do you say it? "into themselves" lol they don't seem to pay attention as much i dunno not ditzy but maybe it does have to do with the training

good question i can't wait to read all the other responses on this one!

***edit OH and i also realized it coul be a mental issue as well when you lock up  a horse in a stall all day and then take them out to ride they ARE GOING TO BE HAPPY AND EXCITED to be FREE so thats another reason a horse gets excited..so i don't stall anyof my horses only in really really bad weather.. otherwise the go in the run in shed for light

rains

this goes for english AND western.. i ride both english and western so i'm usually taking lessons from 2 barns lol anyways i was taking western lessons first and ALL her horses are stalled, nice big open air conditioned stalls! =)  it was a super nice barn about 35 stalls?? maybe 45?

anyways every single horse was a grouch

every horse i rode was too excited i could never go out on a hack with them because they wouldnt listen to my cues

but in the arena they were perfect

this was a western barn

i didn't like it so i changed BUT

i took hunter jumper lessons and she had a very nice place and facility but only about 15-20 stalls and most of them were empty only the old horses and the studs were kept in

anyways every lessons i had to go out to the feild pick any horse i wanted ANY horse and tack him up and start my lessons! the horses were always in a good mood and very personable and sweet they had there riding vices...like not reasponding to canter cues or being stubborn just like anyother horse but if you keep working at it they get over it and this is WAY too long but it just seems the happiest, calm and realxed horse is one that lives outside anyone agree?

stallling is mandatory sometimes but it sure would make me go insane if someone stuck me in a 12x12 room all day!!

Answer 6

Hello,

My input:

We are western here to begin with.

I think it has to do with ground work and exposure!  AND it does vary from horse to horse.

ANY horse that does arena work day in and out is more likely to have some sort of vice...regardless of English or Western riding.  I think that horses should ALL be exposed to LOTS of different things.  And I also think they don't get burned out, soured, etc. if you MIX things up and keep riding interesting for them.

We have lots of performance horses that ONLY see an arena for competition!  They know when the are working or when they are just out having a relaxing time.  We work them riding in the mountains to keep them legged up.

KEEP in mind, there are VERY few horses out there without some sort of vice...

While most of our horses are bombproof, level headed horses they all have something:

Hollywood, BABYSITTER deluxe at just 7 years old!  YOU CAN do anything to him, around him, etc...  But, you tie him up and I bet you 6 out of 10 times he will paw once or twice...NOT a hole, not aggressively, not fidgety, but yes I think of this as a vice!

I could go on and on...  MIND you about 7 of our 11 horses are SO broke you can stand on them, ride backwards, sit under them, slide off their butts, etc...  BUT, each has something...NOTHING major but, there are NOT very many horses out there that don't do something.

NOW as far as:

running off at a show-NO way would NEVER happen with one of our horses

Kicking others while your on them>>>>> NO, but if they are turned out in the pasture, sure

TO get well rounded, level headed, willing horses are what we want!  And to date we have had lots of luck!  BUT, we do TONS of hours, mileage and time on them....and MAN they are NICE>>>>

You can do anything on most of them...and then take them to a barrel race and win the 1D....  THEY all live well rounded lives and trust us as much as we trust them.  THESE are not stalled, only take them out to work them horses...

They live in herds in our pastures, and we ride them hard and far on mountain trails....  THEY love it!  And they love the exercise and feel so connected with the riders they compete with all they have to give.

EDIT****   ABOUT the snaffle bit!  Well, seems we and some other western people out there think that by choosing and harsher bit, you are NOT truly fixing the problem that is at hand.  Lots of time you need to go back and do a bit of retraining.  Snaffles are easy on a horse and allow the rider to retrain the horse so that it learns how to correct the behavior....

EDIT-EDIT****  I do NOT want you to ride a horse you CAN not control in a snaffle!!!! THAT would be stupid!  ANYONE that tells you a snaffle will help with this is WRONG!  YOU don't want to end up hurt...but, it sounds to me like your horse needs more training and that MAY or MAY NOT help!    It could just be that horse!

Answer 7

Stock Horses which is what Quarter Horses are, are not as hot blooded as your eventing horses and therefore seem to have less vices and handle easier than horses used in English riding. It doesn't mean that horses used in western riding don't have vices.

As for snaffle bits. The snaffle bit is the mildest bit you can use. You should be able to control your horse with a snaffle bit. Harsher bits are used to enable a rider to have control over a horse with a lighter hand. A harsher bit should not be used to simply gain control over a horse because it can't be controlled by a snaffle bit. If a horse is properly trained, you should be able to control it with a snaffle bit.  That is not to say that bits such as curb and spade bits don't have their uses and aren't appropriate bits. They just shouldn't be used by the inexperienced. Clinician John Lyons says that if you aren't showing your horse and are just using it for trail riding and pleasure, a snaffle bit is all the bit you should need. I agree with him. I don't show my horses and I don't own anything but snaffle bits.

Answer 8

i believe the first time a new person touches a horse that leaves an imprint on the horses soul forever meaning how you handle the horse shows the horse who you are. :)

Answer 9

First off, I would venture to say that most western riders don't ride in snaffle bits.  Most are shanked curb bits with high ports and curb chains.  And, for the most part unless doing reining, barrels, or other "performance" type riding, the ride is very slooow and not as endurance driven like going around a course of jumps or xcountry or stadium jumping or even a flat class with an extended trot or hand gallop.  Just a jog and a lope which nowadays is almost a version of a stepped up walk.

I think each discipline has it's own challenges and training issues and perhaps we take each others methods for granted being that each has their own set of guidelines and being able to control our horses while performing.  When I use to ride hunt seat my horse in a flat class would work good in a snaffle but required a different bit in a different venue.

Answer 10

No one has ever suggested that I should ride mine in a snaffle (apart from in a joke )although to be honest if I was sticking to an arena I could do that. However I don't drive on my brakes and I don't hang on my horse - but I do like to know I can stop if I need to.

I don't think there is any such thing as a totally viceless horse - that's a horseman's myth.

Answer 11

Where are you getting off saying that its 'western riders' who think like that? No. It's people who have enough sense to know that if you're having a problem handling your horse in a snaffle, there is probably much more going on.

EVERY horse has a vice here or there, though some are mild and some extreme...if there is a perfect horse out there, tell me where I'd love to buy him! BUT I'll tell you now, unless your bit is causing physical pain or discomfort, changing it will not solve anything in the long run.

I see using bits because you HAVE to as pure laziness. I ride a few of my horses in bits that could very much be considered 'harsh' if they weren't ready for it or I didn't know how to use them... But I started in softer bits, and worked my way to more advanced bits to enhance communication, not because I couldn't control them in bits like snaffles.

Here is my honest opinion of it all.... ANY bit can be harsh and ANY bit can be as soft as a baby's butt, it all depends on who is at the other end of them. But using a bit because you cannot control your horse only shows your lack of effort to fix the real problem.

Answer 12

I'm a Western rider and I have friends that ride English

all horses are the same as far as animals

they are trained to do different things

and every horse no matter how good they are are not vice free

that's why there are so many things out there being sold

If it wasn't needed there wouldn't be a market for them

So just know your horse and work with them

Have fun and when people make you feel they are so much better just know they don't know what they're talking about

Answer 13

I'm a western rider and I will openly say my horse has its vices... Just wanted to apologize for anyone that gave you that idea and made you despise us for what they said! We aren't all the same! Good luck with your horses!

Answer 14

I'm a western rider, my horse has vices, I have never heard a westrn rider say if you can't ride in a snaffle your horse needs retraining since most western riders ride in a tom thumb or a curb.  No horse is 100 percent vice free

Answer 15

Well, the source that gave you that information couldn't be any more wrong.  It doesn't matter if the horse is trained for western or english...I am a western rider and I have had my experiance with western horses that were vice-free and horses that were what I like to call "all vice."  I have seen my English friends experiance the same thing with their hunt-seat horses.  It all depends on each individual horse and each individual trainer and rider.  I hope I helped and I hope you have a better understanding that those people who told you that have represented the Western horse world in a false way.

Answer 16

Usually a lot of the western horses are calm Quarter Horses or draft x's. From when I rode western years ago, they all had problems but it just wasn't bursting with energy and running off.

Edit:

If they are saying things like that, then it's just like those snotty barn kids telling you what to do with your horse and how to do it.

Answer 17

The type of bit you use isn't going to stop the horse. Training is what improves your horsemanship and also gets the horse responsive enough to stop on cue. You should be able to flex your horse down and stop them regardless of the type of bit, and in principle even with just a rope and halter on. Although I would never ride on the trail without a bit.

Western riders certainly have horses with vices.

David

http://gentlenaturalhorseman.blogspot.co...

Answer 18

hmmm....... i live in western country, but ride english

and

alot of english riders use snaffles

and almost NO western riders do

but if your using a bit to "fix" a "vice" your not doin so great.

Answer 19

Okay...more of a rant than a question but anyway...

I'm English, and I can honestly say I've never been told that any horse not ridden in a snaffle needs retraining (by anyone). My horses have vices. I believe that any horse should be ridden in the least severe bit possible, and a horse that tanks off with no brakes does need some retraining as this is bad manners. Western riding is, in my opinion, less disciplined that English riding and so maybe the things we consider to be problems or vices do not show so easily. (This is just my opinion, though a friend of mine rides western and she came over to England and rode my horse and she said exactly what I just said - that English is more disciplined).

Just to add: I'm not saying Western riding is easy!!!!!

Answer 20

There are snooty people on both sided of the fence. My horse had her vise's, luckly hers are always pointed at me(she liked to bust in two when in sing, by the way I can't sing). I personly want to learn english riding, because all it will do is make me a better rider. Every horse has its querks. Its just how you handle them I have seen English riders with the most well behaved horses, and Western riders with the worst. As far as a horse being excited and hard control I beleive its all about how much time the rider spend riding horses, as it is a matter of the rider not being able to control the animal. So there is no greener side of the fence. I wouldn't let it realy bother you, because there are snooty a@#holes on both sides that can not see past their own ignorace.

Edit- Bobae I have to dissagree with QH's not all QH's are all that laid back, So many Quarter horses are trail horses, but when you get on a good roping, cutting or barrel racing horse and say that thing is laid back. All horses can be laid back, and all horses can be high strung. It all depends on the horse, rider and training.