Why is it only okay to breed show dogs?

Question

Okay...I'll admit that I am pretty new to the forum. Having said this, I have definitely done my share of browsing questions/answers. I'm wondering why so many people on here are against breeding a dog if it's not for show purposes. Not everyone wants to show their dogs. Just because a dog is not "show quality" doesn't mean it won't be a great companion or service dog. Also, I see so many hypocritical answers. Purebred owners telling others to go to a shelter, when we all know that many of these owners paid a very pretty penny for their pooch...and do not show them. And also, they say, "don't breed for profit", but then will sell their own puppies for hundreds to thousands of dollars.

Just curious, here. Don't mean to step on any toes.

Answer 1

I'm new, too  :)

The idea is that a show dog has had generations of thoughtful training behind it, so it's a lot easier to breed a litter without genetic issues. It's impossible to guarantee a litter without any problems. Breeders should strive to make the best dogs of their breed, the goal being an entire litter of perfect dogs. Of course, only a dog or two will be show quality, but all the others in the litter will have the same, high-quality pedigree. Plus, purebred dogs have a more predictable temperament.

That's the idea, anyway.

I don't understand the pricing thing, either. I know that it can be really expensive to have a litter, between hiring a stud, prenatal vet care, maybe a c-section, the early medical care for an entire litter of puppies (our retrivers both came from litters of 12), and then puppy food...but still, a lot are overpriced. I guess it's paying for the comfort of knowing your dog came from a healthy litter.

Answer 2

I breed dogs.  I breed first and foremost to produce working dogs- Mobility Assistance Service Dogs.  Secondarily, my dogs are show dogs because they should fit the breed standard and showing them is the only way to evaluate that.

Even breeders who breed specifically for service dogs produce pet quality dogs.  The top pick of 3 breeders out of my first litter of Bernese went out as a PET because he wasn't quite what I wanted in a Service Dog-- the brother that I kept will see the show ring as will the sister.

In 8 litters of pups I've made money on exactly ONE litter of pups.  It came up to a whole 19 cents an hour and did not include my husband's time, nor my children's or neighbors.  Nor did it include lost wages for the time I took off work.

I have a litter right now.  3 pups.  Emergency c-section, the b*tch crashed on the surgical table and the decision to save her rather than the remaining 4 pups was made.  My costs so far put me so deep into the hole that even if I bred 3 more litters and had NO PROBLEMS I would just start to break even.  Included in the costs besides the vet care are a couple days off work for myself.  2 weeks of work off for my daughter PLUS the plane ticket to fly her in to watch pups-- and we're not even into the basic care costs.-- and I'm frugal- I do my own dewclaws and my own shots.

The biggest issue with most people just breeding their nice pets is that they don't bother to get the health testing done and they breed dogs that not only barely look like the breed but worse, have serious health issues.  

You're right, there is no 100% guarantee that even a highly pedigreed animal with all the right tests won't produce a dog that has some genetic issue.... BUT- the incidence is much lower amongst high quality TESTED dogs.  So, it becomes a numbers game and a matter of risk.  Since I need dogs who are structurally, temperamentally and genetically sound, I will only buy and breed dogs with many generations of history that I can research.  

As far as shelter dogs-- I've rescued and placed far more dogs of my breed than I will EVER produce.  As a breeder, I can tell you their quality was, for the most part, marginal.  However, they were beautiful dogs as a whole and deserved good homes and as an expert in the breed I could place them well- with proper families who understood the quirks of their breed.

Answer 3

i feel the same way. some people dont want mutt dogs.  

Answer 4

Like you said, you're pretty new here, and browsing questions may not necessarily give you the right idea.  

First of all, there are a lot of people on here answering questions.  After having been here for a while, I no longer even bother reading what a lot of them have to say.  So...keep in mind that a lot of people just spill the lines without even knowing why they're saying it.

The point of breeding only tested and PROVEN dogs is to prevent the breeding of unhealthy dogs.  Simple as that.  A Lab does not earn field trial championships if he is not sound of mind and body.  A GSD does not earn Schutzhund titles if he does not possess the qualities a GSD should have.  Same goes for a Border Collie in herding trials.

I had to put down a 6 month old Rottweiler because his hips were already causing him great pain.  That is simply not fair to the dog, and the person who allowed his mother to be bred is 100% to blame for it.  That, to me, is not acceptable.

The day I can go to petfinder.com and NOT be able to find a dog to adopt is the day that I agree that selective breeding is not an absolute must.  I don't think that day will ever come.

Also, the reason I tell people to adopt from a shelter has absolutely nothing to do with arrogance - I recommend it simply because most pet owners have absolutely no need for a purebred puppy.  In fact, many people will be much better off adopting an adult.  Not only can they evaluate them better, they often don't struggle anywhere near as much as people do with puppies.  Both of my dogs are rescues, and I prefer it that way.

When you state that you don't buy the fact that good breeders don't breed for the money, it simply goes to show that you do not really know what goes into breeding.  You've likely never paid entry fees to shows or field trials, never traveled clear across the state (or better yet the country) to compete, never had to pay the bill at the vet clinic after rushing your ***** in at 3am for a c-section, never paid for health testing on a yearly basis...and the list goes on and on....  

Maybe some day you will become interested in some of these things and you will see just how much goes into it.

Answer 5

I'm going to have to assume here, Zeke's Ma, that your Q has been sparked by a Q that I had asked, that you answered:

http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/ind...

You've obvioulsy not done your homework.  Many breeders will breed, sell and produce show quality and pet quality dogs.  The dog I was referring to is a show quality dog, who produces show quality pups, who can be sold for pets that will never see a show ring in their life. But they CAN be bred with or without titles if it betters the breed - in my case, it does.  

Not ALL show quality dogs are showing, some are sold for pets if the buyer chooses not to show.  Some will be sold with a spay neuter/contract, some will and will not be bred, again, to either produce show dogs or pets, but not meaning that they are less of standard than their cousins who frequent the show ring.

No reputable breeder on her will disuade another reputable breeder from breeding.

And yes, I do have two PB dogs.  But I will never stop suggesting to some to adopt a shelter dog.  I run a rescue, have two PB's and I support both rescues and rep. breeders... what category of yours do I fit into?

ADD:  Wow, Loki!   :O  Now that, my friend, was well-said.  Holy smokes!

Answer 6

We are not really breeding "show dogs"  We are breeding the best to the best, and even then, some will not make show quality, due to some little imperfection..a wrong color, a slightly wroing bite,. ears a little to low, or big or small...those will be pets.  But they will be pets that are HEALTHY and LOOK like th breed is supposed to.  Look at this first dog:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff25/...

It is "just a pet", bres from pet shop parents, and no health testing done.  He is AKC registered.

Now look at THIS dog:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff25/...

It is a well bred dog out of tested parents.  It is AKC registered.  I KNOW you can see the differences in the pics.  But there is a difference you CAN'T see.  The first dog is going to be blind by the end of the year.  It's parents weren't CERF tested for eye problems.  He has CPRA.

Which dog would be a better pet for you?  Which dog could do the job it was intended for?  The first dog has weak bones that would break in rough terrain like the land of the Shetland Islands, where they were developed as all around farm dogs.  He has no coat to sustain him against the harsh gales.  His prick ears would be more prone to frost bite, and wouldn't keep out the cold winds.  His big, round eyes would be a target for debris blown around in those winds.  THAT is why proper breeding of top quality, tested animals is imperative.  Who wants a sheltie that looks like a fuzzy whippet?  We want the dogs to look and act like the breed is MEANT to.

ADDED: I have one mutt, one rescue dog that *I* adopted to my husband from MY rescue, before we started dating, and just lost my old chow mix who I had for SIXTEEN years since I adopted him from the shelter I worked at.  Your "hypocrite" label can't be pasted on me.

ADDED:  <sigh>  Because they are living creatures, even the best are not perfect.  The goal is perfection.  It is indeed unattainable, but don't you see how the pursuit of it only strengthens the breeds?  Did you not LOOK at the pics I posted here?  Can't you tell the difference?  There are pet pups even in the BEST bred liters...and if there were more responsible owners, then only responsible breeders would be breeding, and the quality of the animals would only increase.  It's not rocket science.  If you bred the best to the best, your chances of getting inferior animals DECREASES.

ADDED:  My pleasure to brighten your day, Rainbarrel.  ;-)

Answer 7

I agree hypocrisy is common... however I think the basis behind this idea, is people "showing" their dogs and achieving titles, at the very least the dog will be a good physical example of the breed.  And, in theory if a breeder is willing to go through the effort to show and achieve titles with their dog, hopefully they've also gone through the effort to get all the dogs health certifications done, behavioral testing done, etc.  

But I agree with you, more should be taken into consideration (with respect to breeding) than just a dogs conformation (being a "showdog").  And also for every person preaching "shelter" while owning an expensive purebred, there are many others who practice what they preach.

And finally I'm sure you've read this a thousand times over, there are just so many companion and service quality dogs that EXIST already.  Like they're there, waiting, already.  

Answer 8

"I'm wondering why so many people on here are against breeding a dog if it's not for show purposes."

I don't think people in the forum think every dog should be a show dog, but rather only show dogs should be bred.  Showing dogs is certainly not for everyone, and not every puppy in a litter from show dog parents will be a show quality puppy.  

Having a dog that has earned their champion title USUALLY means that they have correct conformation (body structure), meet the requirements of the breed standard, and have good movement.  However, there are lots of politics in the show world and sometimes undeserving dogs do earn their champion titles.

The whole point of breeding a dog should be to better the breed and end up with puppies that are better than their parents.  If you are not breeding the best dogs of the breed you may start passing on traits that are not desirable.  

I have heard it said many times from back yard breeders that they don't need a judge to tell them that they have a nice dog.  That is what is called "kennel blindness".  It is a lot easier for someone who doesn't know the dog to see it's faults.  I think we have all been guilty at one time or another to love something, or someone, so much that we are blind to it's short comings.

I hope that helped answer your question.

Answer 9

Reputable breeders breed their dogs to be as close to the breed standard. They will also show their best dogs and only breed their best dogs. All their breeding stock have been tested to make sure they do not have problems that are common to their specific breed. If abreeder is breeding for profit, they will breed any pure bred dog whether it has passed these tests or not. They usually mass produce. Reputable breeders that show their dogs are defineatly not making any money off their hobby. They plan well in advance and choose the dog whose genetics will best compliment the other dog's.   Most will only plan for a litter a year, if that. Their main concern is not breeding puppies to sell, they are trying to better the breed by ONLY breeding the very best. That doesn't mean that if you buy a puppy from such a breeder, you HAVE to show it. They will also sell their puppies with a spay/neuter contract to make sure people who do not know what they are doing don't destroy the breed. Unfortuneatly, many of the more p[opular breeds have attracted for-profit breeders who think breeding dogs is as simple as putting a male and female of the same breed together. It takes careful planning to make sure breed specific problems don't overtake that breed. For example; dalmatians became popular and so people started mass producing them and deafness became a huge problem because people weren't taking the time to make sure they wern't breeding two dogs together that would cause this problem.

There is this back yard breeder(byb) that has bordeauxs. He just keeps as many females as he can and breeds them like crazy. he sells each pup for 1500(males) or 3000(females). All his dogs are practically lame with hip problems. His foundation stock probably had that problem and each generation gets worse and worse. Its sad because there are young dogs that can't even run and enjoy life. Do you think this guy shows his dogs? NO! If he did, he would have to face up to the fact that his dogs are not healthy and certainly not healthy. Besides, he is too busy raking in the dough. People who buy from him just encourage him to keep breeding his poor dogs.

Ther are so many more examples of breeds that have been ruined by "breeders" who don't show their dogs, but now I'm rambling. I hope I cleared the air. If not, just add more questions to your post and I'll keep answering. I'm afraid I was just writing all the thoughts as they came out of head so its not very organized.

*ADD* Lol! Jennifer T. a fuzzy whippet! That is like the funniest thing I have read all day! I think I'm gonna be giggling every time I think about it.

Answer 10

It's not necessarily the breeding of "show dogs" exactly.  It's to better the breed itself.  Show dogs are just the top standard for their breed type.  So it only seems right to want to breed the best with the best, correct?  I personally prefer purebreds and I will pay for them, but I do not show my dogs.  I just like knowing that I have a good quality dog from a healthy blood line.  There also is nothing wrong with shelter dogs/mixes.  You can weed through them to find the companion and service quality types.  

Answer 11

Only the very best dogs should ever be bred. The only reason anyone should breed his or her dog is to try to improve the breed.

Here are some things to think about when breeding!!!!

Have you thought about all of the issues involved in raising a healthy litter, such as the pedigree, health tests, conformation, and faults?

Do you know the health history on each of your dog's pedigrees?

Have you studied the pedigree back 5-6 generations?

Do you know if any of them had wobblers or heart conditions?

What are serious health problems in the breed?

Just because a dog passes a heart exam

doesn't mean it's not carrying one of the deadly heart problems that can be passed on to their puppies.

Has your dog/***** been evaluated in the show ring by qualified judges against top competition? Have breeder-judges evaluated them if they haven't shown?

Will his conformation compliment hers?

Or will you be doubling up on bad conformation faults. Too many faults can lead to a very unhealthy

They can also develop temperament problems when they are not healthy.

Have they been OFA certified clear of hip and elbow dysplasia?

Has a veterinary ophthalmologist, who certified them clear of PRA, checked their eyes and other hereditary eye defects?

Have they been tested clear of brucellosis?

Do they both have the proper temperament?

Does the dog/***** have a least 4 titled dogs in his/her 3-year generation pedigree?

If you can answer yes to all of the above questions and you are one

of the lucky few to own an outstanding dog/*****, are you ready and qualified to handle a stud dog or ***** in season?

Breeding doesn't always happen 1-2-3. Do you have the necessary facilities to board a ***** in season, or an intact male?

Are you prepared for whelping cost and puppy care?

Do you realize that it takes more than putting the two dogs in an area together?

Do you realize that leaving a dog and a ***** in season alone together can be disastrous and may even physically harm both?

Are you prepared to loose your ***** during whelping or a c-section?

I have known several that have died during whelping.

You then would

have to tube and bottle-feed the puppies around the clock.

The puppies may start dying one by one because they didn't get the needed colostrum to survive and fight off diseases?

Do you know anything about Fading Puppy Syndrome?

Will you be responsible for the puppies and take one or two back a year from now when the new owners no longer want them anymore?

These are some things that I have told others that are interested in breeding quality dogs.

Get involved with your local breed club. Find a (good) mentor. Or few. More the better! I have several :)

Study the Breed Standard.

Know your genetics! Health & Color.

Know the breed Pedigrees and not just the color you want to breed.

Subscribe to magazines. Study the pics and pedigrees.

Learn everything you can about Canine Reproduction. Buy Books and

read them!

Consult an attorney (specializes in animal law) to write up a good legal Contract for your puppies. Pet and show quality.

Learn about whelping a litter and your responsibilities.

Buy a show quality dog from a responsible breeder with a good Reputation. Show your puppy! Let your peers evaluate your dogs.

Have the proper Health testing done before breeding.

Don't expect immediate success.

To start your breeding program:

*Start with the very best ***** you can!!

*Show your *****.

*Great Pedigree (Line bred)

*Excellent Temperament

*Meets Standard

*Free Thinker

*Health & Longevity

*Good Mover

*Excels in breed type

*Passes health tests, OFA Hips, Heart, CERF - Eyes & Thyroid (TWO years of age)

*Exceptional traits that she may exhibit, heavily line bred pedigree

that has more of a guarantee to produce itself, etc.

Research, Research, Research!!

Breeding/Whelping Information

Is Your Dog Breeding Quality????

http://hometown.aol.com/gelet1447/Breedi...

Costs of Whelping a Litter

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats...

Issues to discuss before you breed your dog

http://www.learntobreed.com/

Questions for Potential Breeders

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Estat...

Dog breeding involves thoughtful preplanning!

http://www.doginfomat.com/schmidt.htm

BREEDER VET PRE-BREEDING EXAM - *****

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub...

Breeder-Veterinarian Topics and Hints

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub...

Links to the best Breeding & Whelping articles on the net!

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/Breedin...

Answer 12

First of all, it's not just show dogs. Working dogs (hunting dogs, herding dogs, sled dogs, dogs with JOBS) are fine, too.

But the point is that there must be a *goal* beyond making "nice pets". Any dog can be a nice pet. People who show and work their dogs also produce nice pets. But they have goals.

* Producing a genetically healthy, quality example of the breed.

* Producing a working dog with drive that can get the job done.

* Preserving the type, soundness, and functional ability of the breed they love.

I understand that not everyone wants to show their dogs. But -- if they're going to buy a purebred -- why wouldn't they want to buy a dog from someone who has put money, research, experience, and time into learning everything they can about how to make a healthy, well-put-together example of the breed.

Can you tell me that? As I said, people who breed *with a goal beyond making puppies* produce plenty of companion/pet puppies. I (for example) keep a puppy out of every litter I breed. But there are others in the litter, and I neither intend nor expect them to go to show homes.

So they make beautiful, healthy, sound, well-bred pets.

YOU: "...be a great companion or service dog. Also, I see so many hypocritical answers. Purebred owners telling others to go to a shelter, when we all know that many of these owners paid a very pretty penny for their pooch"

I'm a purebred owner -- h**l, I'm a purebred breeder -- and I tell people to go to a shelter if they're looking for a companion. Why not? If people don't care about breed, they should save a life. Why is that hypocritical? I paid good money for my dogs -- but I was looking for more than a companion. How does that make me a hypocrite?

YOU: "And also, they say, "don't breed for profit", but then will sell their own puppies for hundreds to thousands of dollars."

I spend an average of $500 on every out-of-town show weekend I attend to determine if my dogs are quality, standard-fitting examples of the breed. I attend 5-10+ out-of-town show weekends a year. I spent $1000+/year on show/dogsledding equipment. I spend $500/year on genetic testing for my dogs. I spend $2000/year on dog food. I spend $3000+/year on vet care.

I breed maybe 1-2 litters/year, and actually sell maybe 2-7 puppies at under $1000 each. The numbers above don't even include the money I spend on whelping/raising the litter. Tell me where I make that money. Please.

The point is this: Breeding with "making nice, cute pets" as your only goal is not acceptable. There are thousands of "nice, cute pets" euthanized in shelters every week.

ADD: I never said ANYTHING about "bettering" my breed. I said that breeders choose to PRESERVE type, soundness, and working ability.

In contrast, those people who have a couple of purebreds and want to "share the breed" with the rest of the world generally know next to zip about type, soundness, or working ability, and produce NONE of those things when they breed. Yes, I do consider that a problem, because the goal is to PRESERVE (not "better") the breed, not destroy it through ignorance.

As Jennifer T brilliantly illustrated, a poorly bred purebred is really only its breed by association. I have a dog in rescue right now who can barely be called a Siberian for the same reason.

And, no, genetic testing and careful breeding cannot completely guarantee that the errant recessive gene will not appear -- however, if you put a puppy whose ancestors had been tested free of a problem for 6 generations next to a puppy whose ancestors had *never* been tested for that problem for at least 15 generations -- which puppy do you think would be more statistically likely to have that problem?

ADD2: Please don't compare dog breeding to the "mutt" human population of the US. Comparing dog breeding to human society is really the last bastion of the truly desperate.

Answer 13

The reason a lot of the people here recommend only going to reputable breeders are as follows.  Yes the price of a puppy from a BYB or puppy mill breeder may be close, but the profit margin and care is completely different.  

The reputable breeders or Hobby breeders invest an enormous amount of time and money to produce a litter.  They do this because they love their chosen breed.

The Mills have the attidude that every dime spent is money lost.  

The Hobbyist will pay top price to purchase the best breeding stock available.  

The for profit will purchase the cheapest breeding stock or just inbreed what the already have in order to save money.  

The hobbyist will purchase the best food available and studies nutrition.  

The for profit will feed scraps or the cheapest food available causing malnutrition in the parents and puppies.  

The Hobbiest will spend thousands of dollars per year in entry fees, travel expenses ect. to prove the superiority of their animals before they breed.

The for profit do not care about the quality of the dogs because "all puppies are cute". and they are selling to misinformed buyers who cannot tell what that pup will look like when it grows up.  They expect it to look like the pictures they saw of the breed.  And by the time the puppy grows up they will love it anyway and not care if it looks like it should.  And no one is going to know where it came from anyway so they have no reputation to protect.  

The hobbyist will do all the genetic testing available because the goal is to better the breed and eradicate the genetic flaws.  I know of a lot of hobbyists who spent years and thousands of dollars to prove and promote a breeding dog only to find that it passed on a recessive fault that they did not know of and had that animal and all of it's offspring neutered.  A complete loss of money and time.  The hobbiest tracks the offspring to make sure no hidden flaws are being perpetuated.  They have an emotional stake in the happiness of their puppies and will usually be a lifelong resource to any problems you may have.  Even taking the dog back to rehome if you cannot take care of it anymore (and no you will not get your money back)

The for profit breeder will not cull a breeding dog as long as it is producing puppies.  Once they are sold they are gone and they don't know (or care) if they are passing on any faults.  They will not take it back or give you any advice.  Or they might respond for short time to try to seem responsible but as time goes on lose contact.

When a dog of the hobbiest is finished producing they are retired and either live out their lives with them or are rehomed to carefully screened new families to be pampered.

When a dog of the puppy mills are finished producing (they are bred every cycle so the mothers never have time to recoup.) they are put down.

So you see.  The prices that you pay for a purebred puppy from a Hobbyist is justified by the costs involved in producing them.  The hobbiest usually loses money on each puppy.  

The BYB breeders and puppy mills are riding on the coattails of the work the hobbiest breeders work. charging the same as if they had paid all of the expenses.  So they are the ones making the profit.  Not the Hobbiests.  

one note;  some BYB really do love their dogs but are misinformed and the result is the same, a litter without the quality.  

Yes, we do encourage people to adopt.  The mixed breeds and homeless dogs need homes too.  I prefer to always adopt an older dog and not puppies because you can see what they look like and their temperament.  

You cannot tell what a puppy from a BYB or Mill will turn out like.  At least the Hobbiest usually knows personally most of the dogs in their litters pedigree and will recommend the best puppy for your needs.

The only way to stop the puppy mills and BYBs is to not give them your money.  

Sorry this is so long.  I will now get off of my soap box.

Answer 14

  Show dogs are bred for-- conformation (breed standard), temperament and health.  Most show breeders, only breed when they are looking to improve the breed.  Byb are usually trying to make a profit- it is their GOAL.

Answer 15

Breeding dogs who are show quality isn't just for the sake of bragging to others that you have a show-quality dog.  If a dog is show quality, it means the dog conforms to the breed standard in height, weight, temperament, and every other facet that makes up the standard for that breed.  Breeding those dogs means the standard is being perpetuated.  By breeding dogs who don't conform to the standard and who could not be shown-- most likely have not been genetically tested to rule out disease and faults.   It in no way means that a show quality dog cannot be a great companion or service dog.  But it is much less likely a poorly bred dog can be any of those things.  

When people here advise someone to go to a shelter, it is often because the dogs people are looking at buying, are from back yard breeders or pet stores.  In that case, don't even bother--one is better off with a shelter dog.  A pet store dog's guarantee is just as unknown and potential health risks are just as likely as one from a shelter.  Not to mention, it is estimated that at least 25% of shelter dogs are purebred.

Breeding for profit is somewhat of a misnomer.  Reputable breeders spend so much effort and money on their dogs, profit is not their motivation.  Most reputable breeders have other jobs (well paying!) that support their breeding of dogs. People who are breeding for profit, are puppy millers, who keep hoards of dogs, breed the females on every heat cycle, and force them to crank out litter after litter.

Add: Great example from Jennifer.  As with her, many responsible breeders are also involved in breed rescue, and it does not matter who has bred that dog. They are often the first to evaluate and pull a dog from a shelter, foster them and find them a good home.  They extend their love for their breed of choice to all of those dogs, well-bred or not.