Why it's nigh-impossible to have a rational discussion about feminism?

Question

I copy/paste excerpts of this article, and I am curious about your opinions:

"I think the problem is that both the men AND the women feel threatened/insulted/etc. For example, I was talking with a friend of mine who is about to become a parent, and he said that he and his girlfriend couldn't see themselves having an abortion because they weren't "that shallow." My hackles went up so fast that the fiancé actually left the room to avoid the pending shitstorm. Why did I react so strongly? Not because I've had an abortion myself but because I would have one in a heartbeat if I did get pregnant, and what he said sounded to me like he was saying I was shallow. Now, this dude is a little clueless at times but he's a good guy and very much a pro-choice egalitarian -- but he still said something that made me go from fine to angry with almost no in-between time.

The thing is, with a discussion of feminism, everything is personal. Saying something like "Well, there are plenty of false accusations of rape" will cause a feminist listener to think of the women she knows of who never reported their rapes because they thought they wouldn't be believed, or who did report it and weren't believed. Saying "men need to stop raping" no doubt sounds to a guy a lot like "you rapist! Stop it!" Plus, if you're having the conversation with someone whose opinion you care about, that only makes it worse - if you hear their comments as an attack, you get all the feelings that come from feeling betrayed.

And pretty much all the time it isn't even the case that they mean to p**s you off! I mean, this friend of mine and I are close buddies, have been for years. He had no intention of saying anything mean about me, and was really shocked when I reacted the way I did. Fortunately, I was able to read that and rein myself in before dumping a vat of verbal hot oil all over him...

The discussion needs to start out with some sort of reassurance on all sides that everything is okay and we're all friends or whatever. Then during the conversation, we need to consciously disengage our own personal feelings from what's being said and stop reading general statements as personal attacks".

For some reason the link I had, is not opening anymore, sorry for this

Answer 1

I think because women were seen as inferior to men for so long, and many men still feel that way. Women sometimes, just like it says in the article, go in immediate defense mode when certain comments are made.

Men have judged women for things that they don't have a clue about or never have had to deal with; like getting paid less for the doing the same job as the opposite s*x, actually having an abortion, worry about being raped when you leave the house at night, giving birth, etc...

I don't think a man could take bleeding out of his privates (don't mean to be gross) every month, and everything that goes with it, cramps, fatigue, and so much more (I won't list any other things, I will sound like a Midol commercial!), I think once a month a man would be in bed moaning for a few days out of every month! I've always heard the saying that if men had to give birth, there would only be one child to every family!  Women are tired of being considered the "weaker" s*x, and take offense to a lot of comments made from someone who has never walked in their shoes. Women may not be as physically "strong" as men in certain ways, yes, they can probably bench press more weight than we can...big deal; but they endure physical things that men probably couldn't handle and can't imagine, and women are definitely as smart, or even smarter in many cases, as men.

So even if you know the person is your friend, a comment is a comment and women have their reasons for getting pi**ed off at times.

Have A Great Day

Answer 2

Tracey, you were arguing a reasonable case up until your last few lines ...

<Something feminism has been trying to achieve for decades. Just as the little cretins who come on here boasting about "men's contributions to society" when they themselves have contributed nothing except whining to society seem to feel their gender gives them gravitas by association>

That kind of gratuitous hateful "sting in the tale" is undiplomatic and unhelpful.

Equalists do not "fight" or create social chaos and disruption like feminism does. Above all we do not promote hate like feminism does.

The equalist position is to win hearts and minds by reason and discussion. Perhaps feminism should try the same approach sometime.

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Answer 3

It's like trying to have a rational conversation about neo-nazism or  or white supremacy.  There's no way to have a rational conversation on a movement that is laced with hatred.

Answer 4

I agree, we should have an intelligent discussion about feminism, and more specifically, ways to to stop it before it destroys more families, hurts more kids, and damages more of our young girls' minds... When you are ready to discuss that, let me know!

Answer 5

I've never seen a feminist here who is open to critical thought on feminism. There's no discussion, just insults and rhetoric.

"Just as the little cretins who come on here boasting about "men's contributions to society" when they themselves have contributed nothing except whining to society seem to feel their gender gives them gravitas by association."

T, blue dress, at your end of the spectrum we have feminism which teaches us that the male contribution is nothing but inherent violence and oppression. Perhaps if their gender wasn't so viciously attacked and demeaned they wouldn't be here standing up for themselves in the first place. Try to think it all through, from both sides. That's my advice to feminists.

Answer 6

Same reason it is impossible to have a rational conversation about health care. Because everyone knows exceptions to the rules or has had personal experiences that have made something excessive/necessary depending on the person

When considering a rape law, you may know women who were raped and didn't report it because the laws didn't favor them, and i may know, or be able to point to (duke lacrosse team) people who have had their names, reputations and lives destroyed because of false rape charges

Also there is emotion involved attached to individuals affected by the issues

Think of a good friend who had a 85 year old grand mother who spent 6 months as a vegetable in a hospital who cost medicare 2 million dollars. A rational disinterested person would say someone after a certain age when they become a vegetable should have the plug pulled as a matter of coarse, but everyone has some experiences or stories of someone pulling through and living anouther ten years etc

Answer 7

Truth! Plain and simple. In order for any discussion to have merrit, it must start with the facts. It says in the Bible, "know the truth, speak the truth, live the truth". This is applicable even if you are not a religious person. What irritates people is when truth contradicts their beliefs. I have experienced this very concept. It is a tough pill to swallow.  

Answer 8

ROFL so true.

Answer 9

Why would a woman that had an abortion or have one in a heartbeat get so upset because others feel that an abortion is being shallow?.

I do find it amusing the writer uses heartbeat and abortion in the same sentence.

Answer 10

It all depends if u r ready to argue with someone whose arguments are based on irrational premise. These people try to make personal attack or might misunderstand a general remark as a personal attack. I do not choose to argue with such people. I might gladly explain once in a while my point of view, but there is a limit to all of it.

Answer 11

Almost everyone on earth is either one or another: a man or a woman. You form your opinions based on your own experiences, and you're generally going to be sympathetic to your own.

No doubt, men who wish to be good fathers are discriminated against in Western countries. But when we hear them complain, we think about all the women we know who got pregnant and had the man run out on her, so it becomes harder to empathize.

And yes, we think about all the rapes that go unreported, so someone banging on about how false accusations are unfair to men (they certainly are) takes a back seat to the women every woman knows who was raped and either raked over the coals by the cops or too scared to report it.

The solution is to look at people as individuals and not judge them by the crimes (or the contributions) of their gender.

Something feminism has been trying to achieve for decades.

Just as the little cretins who come on here boasting about "men's contributions to society" when they themselves have contributed nothing except whining to society seem to feel their gender gives them gravitas by association.

Answer 12

The author made several good points.

As a feminist I fully embrace equality and will have a rational discussion with any man who wants to discuss men's rights as well as women's right.

I will never entertain a whine-fest with someone spouting off about the evil of feminism.

You can open a lot of minds with reasonable discourse.

You will never, however, open a misogynists/misandrists mind.

Answer 13

I have always considered that it is the trolls #1 goal to prevent any logical discussions about women's issues.  They are threatened by this forum and do everything in their power to disrupt things.  That is what their misogynist Internet gurus tell them to do, and like robots - they blindly follow the order.

Answer 14

I see the bias in the question quite clearly. And that person you quote thinks that the world is her servant and whatever she says goes. You use her as an example for all feminism. Not a bad choice really, because all feminists do think like her. They think they're always right.

Maybe discussions could be rational if feminists weren't so biased and close-minded. If they aren't open, no discussion will be sane.

Why do feminists keep reporting and deleting me and doodlebugjim (I win my appeals)? Why hasn't a single feminist lost an account?

Mike T and hopscotch were hit a number of times too.

They've obviously got something to hide. Anybody using underhand means to win has something to hide. If feminist content is going to be the only stuff left on GWS, who isn't going to think they're right?

The British did the same when India rose for Independence. But anti-feminists are like India. No matter how much you try to rein us in and no matter how dirty you fight, we will win.

Answer 15

The discussion only becomes irrational when the speakers have issues...things are not taken personally unless you are insecure about who and what you are...that abortion comment for example, would not offend me and I would not react to it...so the person reacting violently needs to rein themselves up short (like it is stated) and work these issues out...

Answer 16

You can't have a rational discussion about feminism because feminists aren't prepared to be rational. The author of the article seems to think the world should tip-toe around her unreasonable temper tantrums. When most men - or any reasonable woman - discuss things we don't need "reassurance on all sides that everything is okay and we're all friends" or to "stop reading general statements as personal attacks" because any sane and reasonable person does not need to remind themselves that the world is not out to get them.

This sounds like just more silly demands for special treatment from another unreasonable feminist.