"Alpha" Rolling- when/if to use it?

Question

I see this all the time in the questions on here- Someone has an out of control dog that is walking all over one family member or else the entire family and all these people chime in with "You gotta roll them over and show them you're the boss!"

How many of you actually know how to perform this questionable maneuver, what success (if any) have you had with it, and what danger do you think is posed to the average pet owner attempting this procedure on a dog that already has dominance issues?

Just curious...thanks in advance.

Answer 1

I was shown this technique by a professional trainer. When our puppy was young, we used it quite frequently. Now that he's older, I haven't used this technique in quite some time. I think that he's gotten the idea that we're Alpha.

As for the danger, there is danger in anything. It's at what risk does the owner want to take in performing this maneuver, is the real question. If used properly, and at the correct time, it's a very useful tool when training, or correcting negative behavior.

Answer 2

Some people just don't have a clue as to train a dog. I see "Call Caesar Milan" all the time. I have raised several dogs from puppies and never had to consult someone about how to train them. And when I had a problem (one with barking and another with possession aggression), I solved it myself. Some people should do a lot more research BEFORE they get a dog.

Answer 3

Yep - its dangerous.  And never do this to a dog if you have fear or even feel uneasy - they'll know and take advantage.  If you're going to do something like this to prove that you're the boss, you'd better believe and behave like you ARE the boss.

I've done a 'sort of' roll on my dog. He's pretty arrogant.  Mainly I make him rollover for me.  He HATES to roll over (dominance issue).  But if I command it - he'll begrudgingly do it.  If he balks, I'll help him along with a nudge or a little push - but I never put myself in a place where I can get hurt or where he can 'win'.  I want him to do it himself.

Answer 4

I think it is dangerous for any novice.  There are ifs, ands & buts when using this technique.  One could be bit in the face or attacked just trying to pull it off.

Most people don't know their dogs as well as they think they do & trying this could cause some serious problems.

I have used the method years ago when working with Wolf Hybrids.  But I am an experienced dog handler & knew what I was doing.

Answer 5

I dont use it. I dont need to use it.

If I 'tell' my dog to "Roll over". It is for tummy scratch or a flea comb, not to show him I am alpha.

He knows that already.

I have researched this maneuver and choose not to use it nor do I recommend to anyone to try it. I understand why dogs do it to each other and see it happen between dogs.

The reason why I dont reccommend this to anyone is because I dont want to be responsible if their dog decides to 'challenge' them.

My vet reccommends it, however I prefer not to take it on board.

But thats just me.

Answer 6

It is a dangerous technique, and the Monks of New Skete have not included it in their second edition "How To Be Your Dog's Best Friend". It's a good way to get bitten in the face if you don't execute it perfectly, and it can be traumatic for a dog with a soft temperament. I did have to use it once with a very very alpha female Aussie who had been on the streets for several years and was tough as nails.  One day she was chowing down on my kitchen trash, and I knew there were pieces of foil with meat drippings that could kill her.  I  told her firmly "Out of the trash"!!  She immediately stood tall, tail nub pointing skyward,  ears up and forward,  giving me the direct eye contact stare. She had a low growl  going.   So I did grab a handful of scruff and hip skin to put her on the floor.  I knelt over her with my hands keeping her neck down.  She thrashed, growled like thunder, and tried to bite and to rabbit kick me.  After about a full minute of this she finally signed, looked away, and relaxed and lay there.  I let her up, and she trained easily after this.  So yes, in this case it did work.  However, I'd handle things differently now.  For starters, I don't have the trash where they can even gain access to it.  And there are far less physically confrontational ways to  be an alpha that are also not as dangerous.

Answer 7

I have an alpha male Siberian and I'll tell you I was the one who he bullied. Even when he was a pup. When he got big enough and I knew he was serious I did have to roll him onto his back and hold him down until he stops struggling. This is a show of his submission and your dominance. It's a repetitive task and he's now six and STILL tries it and we have to repeat. My dad also had a problem with this as Dad was considered in the dogs eyes as the Alpha. That means a challenge to him. My dad would be tired or get sick and even as a pup he would try to take him down. If he'd gotten his way he WOULD have killed him as they are very close to wolves. My dad had to take him outside one day and fight with him until he was on his back, once there he had to hold him down for about an hour, which is when the dog stopped fighting.  It does work. I promise. Afterward, they will be submissive and act domesticated and be a happy go lucky friend. Their ego may be busted but they get over it. But it HAS to be the one he's bullying to roll them over, otherwise they think they're still over them in authority.

Answer 8

I've never done it - too easy to get bitten. Only a professional should do this, if you can find one that will. Too many people try it without realizing that you have to be in the right mindset - it won't work if you think watching the dog squirm is funny or if you giggle at the funny noises. You have to be calm and in control. Most people cannot achieve this (right away.)

Does it work? Who knows! It seems to on TV but come on, it's TV. I don't trust anything on that because the sense of how long this stuff takes is skewed and you never know if the person worked with the dog before hand.

The only thing i do that could be considered "dominating" is when i hold her: if she squirms i do NOT put her down because that teaches her squirming equals getting put down.

Answer 9

maneuver ? how hard can it be, but its mostly inefectionate, coz thats like playtime for puppy.puppy get in thet position when other bigger dog is attacking or treating, -but they get on same position to people when they wont some fun.

people say many wrong things. the thing i did is (when my pup started all alpha on me, and biting pants and leg) , i take het mouth and hold them closed untill puppy cryed.i know it sounds ruthless but it didnt hurt her, she just learned that biting really hurts and she made that noise when she had enough.now when shes playful, she jumps around my leg and slightly hitting my leg with her nose, but NEVER bites, she is tempted, but doesant do it. also that maneuver of mine helped with the alpha question.

Answer 10

Once.  With a dog I was training at a kennel I used to work at.  And it was a whole lot more than rolling over...it was an all out tackle, growl, snarl, "don't you dare ever do it again" kinda event.  (Oh yeah, that's right...I can snarl with the best of 'em)  

She was doing great with her obedience, but insisted on seeking out another female in the kennel and fence fighting with her every time she was let out of her kennel.  I had enough of being ignored by her when I called her off and I also had enough of the fighting.  It worked.  

After that, it never happened again.

Do I recommend it to others?  Absolutely not.  This was a one time deal, and the situation was just right that allowed it to work.  The dog did NOT have dominance issues with me, she simply needed a clear message that when I told her to stop she better stop because I AM the BOSS and I make the rules...all of them.    

Today, I'm less agile and way less willing to tackle a full grown lab....I'd just strap on an e-collar and take care of it.  (ah, to be 18 again...)

Frankly, for the most part the whole thing is useless.  I've seen people try to do it, and I've really never seen it actually do any good.

Answer 11

This is NOT a manuever I recommend for any sane, normal, average, everyday dog owner.  Its much too easy to be bitten.

The reality is that even the developers of this practice, the Monks of New Skete, now say "we were wrong!"

There are things a trained professional can/will do that an ordinary person should never attempt.  You wouldn't try to work as a stunt man without extensive training- why would you attempt a manuever that not only may get you bitten but is likely to cause WORSE results (increased aggression maybe getting a child bitten as a means to relieve displaced aggression) ?  (rhetorical you.. not YOU!)

Edit: Miaugh makes a great point- in pack hierarchy submission is given it is NEVER forced.  Submission is active, a response to a situation.  Forcing a submissive position is likely to cause escalation in issues.  To add to that-- Alphas rarely are required to use much force-- it is usually the betas that are the social climbers constantly squabbling- so, if you want to PROVE to your dog that you are a NOT an Alpha-- go ahead and roll him.... and prove that you're a beta social climber not worthy of his respect!

Answer 12

Know how to do it....would never use it.

It's an outdated maneuver, not to be attempted by the novice, and puts you in the perfect position to get bitten. I thank Cesar Milan for re-popularizing it, and in the process, making it look like a safe and easy way to handle an unstable dog. Bullsh*t. There are other ways, other methods that don't put the handler in such a precarious position.

No one should really "need" to pin their dog into submission...to me, that indicates the handler is lacking assertiveness in the first place. With the pitties, one look, and the tone of my voice had them in alpha roll position, without so much as a hand on them

Answer 13

No, I haven't used it and wouldn't. It seems to me that dogs who are in the most likely position to merit this type of correction (if it can be even called that) are the least likely ones to respond to it.  And the dogs who learn quickly to "submit", don't need this kind of harsh treatment to begin with.  

It's interesting to note how many average dog owners are so quick to latch onto this dominance theory, alpha rolls, and pinning your dog down for X amount of time--but when they are presented with clear facts on the flawed study that originated the "alpha roll", they want to ignore it.   The theory has since been shown to be inaccurate.  Alpha wolf pack members to not force subordinates to submit by rolling them, the lower members readily present themselves in this posture as a sign of submission and respect to the alpha.  

But I guess it's easier to watch a 1/2 hour Cesar Millan tv show to get training information than read manuals by experts like Ian Dunbar and Jean Donaldson.

add to Sah: The "roll" hasn't really worked too well, if you've had to repeat it over and over for 6 years, has it?

Answer 14

a co-worker tried it..and got bit...go figure

He's lucky it was his hand, and not his face.

Answer 15

The only time I roll my dogs over is belly rub time. They will be on the floor playing but they know when I roll them over they get their bellies rubbed. =)  I would never attempt to roll a dog for alpha if I do not know or hesitant about it, especially with the breed of dog I have which are Rotties. I use a sturdy NO or AH and that is pretty much all I need. Sometimes if need be I use for alpha correction mode is the sturdy down and stay position (sometimes with foot on lead) and will stay in that position until I say so with no contact or attention. This is if they get really out of hand while we are on a walk or they are in public. But that is rare.

Then again I think this why people who get dogs should research and go to obedience classes when they get the dog.  This is from a good obediance trainer. Someone who will also "train" the owner to be able to train their dogs.  Some of the out of control behaviors can be rectified there. And a good alpha to dog role is being established.

I am also not a big fan Cesar Millan.

Answer 16

Oh heavens nooo!! D: Please don't do it. You'll end up with an unhappy dog and a nasty bite. ):

And check out Victoria Stilwell!! Her methods are wonderful!